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Post by Swallow on Aug 6, 2005 11:52:27 GMT 11
Hang on, no wires crossed here, i didn't say that the bible did not rejoice sex or what have you, i was discussing the church, two entirely different entities. Christanity through the ages is a really good guide as to how to control and invade countries, through manipulation, repression, and control. I'm not saying that's what it's like today, and i'm not saying for an instant that anyone who is Christian are Fascist, not in the slightest, i'm just talking history here. And the history of Christianity (and more than likely every religion on the planet) is littered with the misuse of information, the misuse of people's ideas who weren't trying to create the Church, but try and give people some answers and stop the madness of power. I have great respect for those people, across all religion, who had the guts to step forward and say what they believe in.
I have a little respect for those who managed to manipulate their words for power, simply because that took some skill, but i don't admire them. Part of the reason why i don't believe in organised religion, i honestly don't think that lives should be dictated by an organisation that doesn't know them, and most of the time doesn't try to. I know that's harsh, but i've got my reasons other than this. And you can't say i don't know the bible, as i said before, i love religion, i love theology, i know my works, it just doesn't mean i have to take it all as fact.
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Post by Raineth on Aug 6, 2005 15:11:17 GMT 11
But its not just christianity that people have done dreadful things in the name of. Nearly every religion has been twisted and used to commit abhorrent acts. It doesn't even need to be a religion to do that (you should read some of the fanatical articles that the Breastfeeding Association writes!).
All of us make nearly all our decisions based on fear. Why do you put your seatbelt on? Becuase you're afraid of having a crash and dying, why do you pay your bills? Because you're afraid you'll get your electricity cut off etc. So its no surprise thats what stood out to many people, the fear of eternal damnation. And there was definate period in the church where that was emphasised by many priests and bishops. However really devout people seem unaffected by fear of satan, they seem to me to be completely driven by love and they are often very serene. That is just something I have noticed.
The church and the bible are different entities ones a book ones a church. But the church is based on the book (well mainly the new testament) they are not opposing forces. Its not really a case of having your life dictated by the church. If you choose to be catholic then you choose to try to follow the Catholic way of doing things to an extent decided by yourself. You always have a choice, its not like you'll end up on the block for not doing what your priest told you. Anyway being catholic about living for God and trying to take on the qualities of Jesus etc so you probably want to do what the church advises.
Well thats just the way I see it, from being brought up by my devout Catholic mother and my atheist father. Who never gave me the feeling that sex was shameful or secretive but that it was so special as to have its own guidelines. I think alot of the issues brought up here depend alot on what you're parents have subtley taught you. My Mums best friend is also a devout catholic yet believes sex is really only for producing babies, and other funny things like that.
My bottom line is that people will read into things what they want to. Shadow sees love peace and truth in his religion, Flit sees power struggle and falsities and other things that make her very wary...(Note Flit that I'm not saying you see those things because you're a negative person who is suffereing from power Lust or something- i know you are a very sweet person!)
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Post by Swallow on Aug 6, 2005 21:35:47 GMT 11
I am laughing so hard right now, my sides are hurting. Raineth, you've made my day! ;D
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Post by Raineth on Aug 6, 2005 21:40:50 GMT 11
I'm so glad i have made your day! I was quite worried you'd take it wrongly. I am very glad you are laughing!
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Post by Swallow on Aug 6, 2005 22:03:11 GMT 11
Raineth, the people i hold in my highest esteem are those that can take being bagged out, and also give back as good as they get. ;D We have a thing on our family when you know we hate you when we get very civil and polite and listen attentively. But you know when you're apart of the family when you literally get away with nothing, and make sure you know about it for the rest of your days..... so trust me, i could never get angry with someone telling me that i might be under the Power Lust... PMSL oh damn that's just so funny.... I think out of all the deadly sins that'd be the last one i'd go to hell for.... if there was a hell, but anyway, you know what i mean 
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Post by shadowoutcast on Aug 6, 2005 22:57:19 GMT 11
I have another book you could read (ok begining the the Bible for anyone is kinda hard). Grab something like a biography book by D.C Talk titles Jesus Jreaks I or II. It just gives simple acounts of how what they believe effected them in the most crullest places (Prision, facing death for believing and so forth).
Also I enjoyed your sum up of what I believe in a nut shell. It was nice, and I might place this here (although I don't think of Christains as denominations) I am Lutheran mostly because of having a slightly german background from my mums side.
I'm really enjoying this dissucsion it gives me an idea on how open to thought people are, I love the colection of experience to which makes us uniqic it so cool.
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Post by Raineth on Aug 6, 2005 23:09:38 GMT 11
I am really enjoying it too. It is all very interesting. It seems as though everyone is getting along very happily now and there is a nice vibe to it all.
I wasn't sure exactly what you were Shadow. I didn't think you were Anglican or Pentecostal though(especially pentecostal). I mainly used Catholic because of my Mum. And if i go to church that's the one I go to.
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Post by shadowoutcast on Aug 7, 2005 4:07:59 GMT 11
well I dont mind just for future reference then. I'm not all that into the dimonincations part of the christain faith real. All it is a difference interpertation on what the bible says. The only ones I think are a little over the top are J. witness... just to much in to rule and reg for me.
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Post by Lix on Aug 7, 2005 18:07:35 GMT 11
oh and something else is you don't have to be 'holy' or anything to read the bible. darn right its entertaining without the nmessage, the old testiment much mroe tho |
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Post by Talmina on Aug 7, 2005 20:45:11 GMT 11
yeah it is a much better vibe now. Shadow, i agree, the J. witness's are far too controlling, a friend of mine was raised as one, though her parents are very relaxed about it all now. I definately couldn't accept having those sorts of restrictions placed on me simply by my beliefs. The only restrictions that I allow placed on me by my beliefs are basically a reminder that karma works both ways. Karma is great, it has reminded me that I dont need to feel vengeful feelings because if I really have been wronged like I feel I have been, I don't need to punish them in any way, life will do it anyway.
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Post by Raineth on Aug 7, 2005 21:39:02 GMT 11
Yes do they really think God cares about some of the things they insist on doing? Brethren are even worse though when it comes to those sorts of things. They won't even eat with you, they can't watch T.V and they (the females that is) have to wear scarves arund their heads. I honestly can't imagine God saying "well you may have done some bad things, but atleast you always wore a scarfe around your head."
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Post by shadowoutcast on Aug 7, 2005 23:07:12 GMT 11
the thing i have with j.wittness is that they call themselves a chritain following yet they believe that jesus was just a phophet not the son of God. I can name passages where it says it for them but what you going to do?
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Post by Ashta on Aug 8, 2005 14:15:02 GMT 11
Although my views on this topic have already been covered (mainly by Flit!) I would just like to add a few sentiments of my own.
Firstly sometimes a purely physical relationship isn't right (I have had a few too many one night stands and they are not emotionally healthy and can be really really depressing, especially when you are an emotional person such as me!). I found that period of my life to be absolutely unfulfilling and hollow. So now I've moved on to thinking that what I really need is an emotional relationship to help support the physical, or otherwise I just get depressed.
Secondly, Song of Songs is a beautiful book. It does express the idea that male female physical relationships are beautiful and ordained. Just thought I'd say that.
Thirdly, I have become very sceptical about the institution of marriage in a post-modern society. Every relationship seems to be 'until further notice'. You only have to look at divorce statistics to realise this. With freedom of choice we lose the security of marriage and even family. I'm sure there are many of us younger generation who can put up their hand and say that they come from divorced parents and non traditional family structures. To me, waiting for marriage to have sex is a flawed concept, because marriage is no longer secure.
Lastly, I have shared a lot of personal information here, and I would appreciate that it be treated with the utmost respect and reverence with which I have shared it.
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Post by Raineth on Aug 8, 2005 14:36:39 GMT 11
But marriage is what you make of it. Before I got married (knowing the terrible statistics) I was worried that it would eventually dissolve like so many others. But it didn't take me long to realise that you have total control. There are ways of doing things in a marriage that generate success. I believe (that in nearly every marriage) whether it fails or not is up to you. You keep each other happy everyday and you always have in mind something to say/do for your partner to make them happy. This is always in my mind, a goal that I am always working towards and as long as I keep this going I can't imagine it falling apart.
But i'm not actually arguing with you about the sex before marriage thing. I think that's a really individual thing. I admire people who want to keep it for their wedding night and manage to do so.
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Post by Talmina on Aug 8, 2005 14:50:27 GMT 11
my big problem with j witnesses is that they would rather die than get a blood transfusion, and that instead of just keeping this belief to themselves they do things like putting magazines with articles about the risks of blood transfusions in hospital waiting rooms (and yes my mum found one in the CHILDRENS hospital in melbourne of all places) and the fact that they try and force their beliefs upon you. I really dont like it when people do that, and all it does is give their religion a bad name.
im really against the whole "we are gonna annoy you by coming to your house until you join us" thing, even if one of my friends is a mormon missionary at the moment, hehas never once told me that i have to believe what he believes so i respect him for it, and life without coffee gah! i think he is only doing it cos it helps him get a scholarship for uni, and because his parents want him to
my opinion is believe whatever the hell you want so long as you arent trying to force anyone else to believe it, or using it to harm people in some way, yeah im also very against "holy wars" of any sort. why cant people accept that their ancestors made mistakes and its time to move on into an age of acceptance, let people believe what they want. no one should be killed for what god or lack thereof they believe in!
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Post by Lix on Aug 8, 2005 18:47:53 GMT 11
But i'm not actually arguing with you about the sex before marriage thing. I think that's a really individual thing. I admire people who want to keep it for their wedding night and manage to do so. eek but would you really want to go through the awkwardness on ur wedding night? Im prolly going to be to tired on mine to bother anyway |
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Post by shadowoutcast on Aug 8, 2005 19:03:45 GMT 11
my opinion is believe whatever the hell you want so long as you arent trying to force anyone else to believe it, or using it to harm people in some way, yeah im also very against "holy wars" of any sort. why cant people accept that their ancestors made mistakes and its time to move on into an age of acceptance, let people believe what they want. no one should be killed for what god or lack thereof they believe in! Exactly I hate having things thrown on to me (It evens happens if you already believe). Like there was this course called Alpha that all my friends were doing I me well I didn't feel ready for it, not the right time and place or a big red stop light in my face but still they went and tried to bug me. So eventually I caved and go nothing out of it. So from experience I know what it feels like to have something thrown at you and then stamped on even if you have you own mind. I then apply this to how I talk to people about my faith and why I believe. I make it so I'm explaning my experiences not saying that it the only thing that everyone should know. We still have our own choses to make. |
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Post by Raineth on Aug 8, 2005 20:39:39 GMT 11
eek but would you really want to go through the awkwardness on ur wedding night? Im prolly going to be to tired on mine to bother anyway Well I don't think it would be awkward. You're with the person you're totally inlove with and is inlove with you, and you've both been waiting along time. I think maybe desperate would be a better word. As for being tired, that's why its acceptable that you retire from the reception at a reasonable time, I would say no later than midnight. |
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~Ethereal~
Gypsy
Wake up kids! We've got the Dreamer's disease![x=etherealdeva]
Posts: 494
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Post by ~Ethereal~ on Aug 8, 2005 23:56:13 GMT 11
I've enjoyed readign this thread so much that I decided it was only fair if I contributed. On the sex before marriage issue, I've only ever had rules for myself. I'd alwasy told myself that I would lose it to my first real love. And I did that, so I will never regret it, unlike soem of my friends who lost it in circumstances they regretted almost instantly. I do believe that it's a special and intimate act. My best friend is waiting till marriage and I could not respect her more for holding to her beliefs. I must say that I know a girl who I find it very hard to respect. She was a very vocal christian, who spent much of her time tryign to convert us all, tellign us all that the way we act hurts her soul. She was also very vocal that sex is only for marriage, yet when we were jsut out of yr 12 she told us that performing, um, other acts with peopel she picked up at a bar was fine because it wasn't sex. Her actions jsut didn't seem to gel with her beliefs, which is fine I guess, btu when she'd benn so vocal and evangelical, almost pushy abotu her beliefs, it seemed a shame that she lowered them so that she could feel pretty. I'm quite liek FLit, theology is one of my loves. I'm lucky enough to be studyign it at uni. I did Biblical studies last semester, which was really quite an experience. I'd alwasy had a basic understandign of the bible, btu I learnt so much more abotu it, adn where the beliefs of Christianity were grounded, and how they worked into history. And I'll say this, almost everyoen in the class was Christian or agnostic leanign towards christian, so when I started it I was kinda intimidated and felt really out of place. But almost everyone was really good about helpign me out and correcting any misconceptions I might have because of where I'm comign from and how I grew up. I only had one or two issues, adn I put that down to individual personalities. As I've alwasy said 'fanatics/zealots of any kind worry me.' Oh,a dn on the point of JW's, there's a JW who comes to see me every couple of weeks. She alwasy brigns someone different, btu they don't talk very much. We always have a nice chat abotu the world and the magazines she leaves with me are great for essays. She's never been pushy at all, and on the whole from my experinces, I've found Mormons to be pushier. Oh, my. I've rambled on for ages. SOrry guys.....  |
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Post by shadowoutcast on Aug 9, 2005 9:41:22 GMT 11
basical it depends who you talk to within JW, if you have a chance to meet them at a stand in the Royle Show you'll could hear them from a mile away. But year some of them aren't all that bad as people I respect anyone with the ablity to make what they do and why the do it 'solid'. One pet annoyance of mine is people who just say "I do because I was rasied that way, I don't realy go for it." It understandable but I just get fustrated with people who pronouse their involvement and then disown it as soon as it goes sour.
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Roland
Guildmember
Ashlings' Prankmonkey 
Healer's Guildleader[x=crazedturkey]
Posts: 1,622
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Post by Roland on Aug 9, 2005 14:03:14 GMT 11
Look I don't care what floats your boat, as long as you aren't acting immorally, violently, against the accepted laws and morals of society, or forcing me to go along with it (or like that buddy of yours, who act all superior, but who's morals don't really jive with your own p.s ick! someone needs to explain to her that it's a fine line! plus point out how hard everyone laughed at Bill Clinton "I did not have sexual realtions with that woman. Sure.
JW's bug me, because they try and convert people. The blood thing, nbot so much, because they can't stop their children recieving it if they need it. Once you're old enough to determine your own medical treatment, you can refuse, and then I say, well that's your choice. I don't like it, but I'll live with it.
Leaving leaflets in an emergency room crosses the line.
(Oh and Morman's annoy me, cos they're often really good looking young men. Then you realise that they're Morman's, and they're only talking to you to convert you. Kinda smacks the ego around a leetle).
I agree with you as well SO. Faith is a personal thing, and you're either into or your not. People who say they just do it because everyone else does, but don't believe irritate me too!
Having said that however, I often get into trouble with some christians, becayuse I generally only attend church services a few times a year. However I believe that faith is about just that faith. Going to church doesn't makje you more faithful than anyone else. It just means you have more time on Sunday mornings!
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Post by Ashta on Aug 9, 2005 15:47:29 GMT 11
I agree with turks, faith isn't always synonymous with pracitce. I call myself 'wiccan' but I don't think I have held an esbat in well over six months. It doesn't mean I don't believe!
Raineth: I also admire people who wait until their wedding night (I, however am not that patient!!!)
Etheral: i lost mine to my first love too. No regrets there!
And I have nothing against any faiths, as long as people are trying to thrust it upon others. I was once accosted by one of my teachers who told me that i was upset and that I should talk to god (she shook me physically and carried on until i made a commital sound that I would try it) That irritated me! I'm sure there is the basis for a law suit there.
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Post by shadowoutcast on Aug 9, 2005 19:52:12 GMT 11
I must say that I have always had the idea that the people make the church not the building. As it even say it
I'm just saying a building can be distoryed and broken, and it maybe a great loss or set back. But if there are still people from that place living on without it and having hope faith can be anywhere.
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~Ethereal~
Gypsy
Wake up kids! We've got the Dreamer's disease![x=etherealdeva]
Posts: 494
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Post by ~Ethereal~ on Aug 9, 2005 22:01:48 GMT 11
I agree with turks, faith isn't always synonymous with pracitce. I call myself 'wiccan' but I don't think I have held an esbat in well over six months. It doesn't mean I don't believe! I know the feelign Ashta |
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Post by Talmina on Aug 10, 2005 20:50:30 GMT 11
ashta, i know the feeling about the teacher accosting you, i once had an aide jump down my throat because i had an astrology book in my bag, in a public school too. a month or so before that she also tried to do a christian healing on me because i had stomach cramps really bad. she really tried hard to force it on me, it drove me up the wall, it was like she couldnt handle working so closely with someone who didnt believe in god, which isnt technically true but i dont believe in the way she wanted me to. im sure i got a lecture about tarot cards being highly evil somewhere in there too.
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