Your life or your freedom?

[Dameon]

Well, on another thread we started talking about politics and government and what you would do for your country.

It reminded me of this argument I have all the time.

My brother and I have this ongoing argument about what would happen if Australia was ever invaded and taken over by another country. Think The Tomorrow Series kind of thing, only in the city or your home town.

My bro is a self-confessed coward, and he says he would co-operate fully with the occupying government. I believe him too!
I would join the Resistance, or even start one in my town.
I would fight for my freedom and for other people's freedom, while he would rather stay alive.

I think this says a lot about who he is, and a lot about who I am. I think it's a question that can penetrate quite deeply into a person's character.

I'm not strong, in fact I'm extremely weak, physically. I'm not a violent person, and I wouldn't ever hurt anyone intentionally (physically or emotionally) unless I really had to. But I WOULD fight for my freedom. And for other people's freedom. That's REALLY important to me, because it's no good being free if you can't see that the people you care about are also safe and have their freedom.

So two questions:
1. What would you do? Join the resistance? Co-operate fully? Or just sit it out and hope they leave?
2. How did my parents manage to raise two children with such different views? What do you think makes a person think differently about their safety vs their freedom?

Very philosophical for a Wednesday night, I know. But I'd love to hear your thoughts, because I always hear such good sense from Ober.netters.

KSL

[Delwyn]

well, the answer to question 1. - my instinct would be to cooperate, but i think i would want to join the resistance. i like to think that i am at least the tiniest bit strong and i would readily go out to fight them if i had the chance.
Question 2. - i think ur parents did a good job in raising u!!!! i think it is likely that two children of the same family can have different views, even if they were raised the same. take my family for instance. i think one of my older brothers would sit it out, but the other two would (i think) join the resistance. i guess it does depend on how strong u are, not physically, but emotionally. would u be willing to handle the stress, the worry, the emotional pain of seeing others around u, ur friends, be captured, possibly even killed. would u be able to fight them, take anothers life??? i wouldnt know, until it had happened to me. in answer to the other part of the question, i think it depends on their discursive background (i actually learned something in english!!), where they grew up, what they grew up with. such as my brothers, my eldest brother grew up in south africa, with all the violence, while my other brothers were probably too young to notice before they moved to australia. as for me, i wouldnt know, as i was born in australia and havent known violence. and as i said before, it depends on how emotionally strong u are.
well that was long and now my fingers hurt, so bye
*falls asleep in chair*

[brydie]

ok, i didn't read all of delwyns post because its too early in the morning and my eyes are sore. but i know exactly what i would do. i know myself very well. i would fight. does that come from being a LOTR fan? no, i've always been like this. there is no way i would ever accept anyone else's rule. i would DEFINATELY fight.
as for the parenting thing...i dunno! i'm nothing like my brothers. my youngest brother is very sexist, and i cant understand why seeing as he lives under the same roof as me. i dont think it has anything to do with the parents, just the personality and personal beliefs etc.

[Lauren Hedgehog]

idealistically i'd have to say that i would fight, but i don't know if i could could fight or sabatarge (SP) stuff either physically or emotionally. i can't even do an oral presentation without running away and i wouldn't be very good in a dangerous situation because i'd just freeze up(unless it involoved blowing stuff up). but i also couldn't stand around and do nothing, maybe i could organise stuff at the base or something .

as for the rest of my families (i have 2) i reckon almost all of them would fight or grow up to fight since 6 of them are under the age of 12 (that wonderful rebelous irish blood ) the only two i can see co-operating would be my mum and one of my brothers

hmmm..... i don't know what makes people think differently but it's probably their values and experiences and because us Aussies don't have much experience in fighting the types of books and stories that appeal to us could influence our decision (after all how many books do you read where the main character just sits by and lets their country be taken over)

lauren hedgehog

[Min]

Interesting topic Kayt

Ok, I would hope that I would fight. I've always been a fighter, especially against injustice. It's been the only way I survived growing up with a dominant father and a mother that'd never speak up for us or herself (hence I am the way I am!!).
However I was a lot more of a fighter when I was younger. In the last few years, I've gotten so tired of fighting everyone, it's emotionally exhausting. I'm not sure the world is worth fighting for anymore - I still care. I just don't fight. I donate to WWF every month, and I volunteer for the RSPCA when I can. But no more writing angry letters to Proctor & Gamble (one of the major animal lab testers in the world - makers of Pantene, Head & Shoulders, Clearasil, and a load of other stuff - ask me if you're interested - I had an email war with one of their workers about 2 years ago). I just don't have the energy or the love for the world, because the way it looks now I'll continue to exhaust myself and it'll never change. So I just live by my principals and try to protect the ones I love.

Wow, ok now after all that...I know I would fight. If someone threatens my friends or family now, I'm jumping down their throats (the running joke atm is with my black 'mafia' car that if anyone does us wrong, we put them in my boot and take them for a drive hehehe).
But in reality I have no idea how I would act, unless it happened. I think the initial reaction would be to run, to get everyone I know and love out of harms way, and then plan a resistance.

I've been told I have to read the Tomorrow series by a few people lately - is it really that good?

[Elspethseeker]

Hmm it is a very intersting question. It really depends on who took over, what I felt at the times, my descisions in life, what i belive in, how it affects me. I think I might joint the resistance i like the freedom of my country and being The united States of America. i am still trying to find my place in the world so my answer may differ from the one when i am 20.(though i think it would be the same)

[Clare]

I wouldn't fight. I'm a coward yes... but I'd be better suited as a neutral. Kind of like Switzerland during wwII. That's right. I'd give you all safe passage through my property, regardless of your political or religious inclination. And those chests under my floorboards never existed. I have no recollection of taking your money for safe-keeping whatsoever. Infact, I don't know anything about banks or safety deposit boxes. All I know is that I stayed out of your way while you were killing ordinary people or on the run from authority... and you repay me by questioning my motives?

Where is the trust in the world?

Ah... the rich and benificial life of the neutral.

[Arien]

well, i'd want to fight. i don't know if i actually would if that ever happened...because i get scared and i've never been in one of those situations before, so i don't really know how i'd act. I do know that i don't want to stop living my life and change completely because some other country wants me to. I get angry at the smallest things and have a habit of doing the opposite thing to what people tell me to so I'd probably be a pain to anyone who took me hostage, anyway

[talisha]

I would fight. I think at the beginning I would be terriffied to fight, but I know that I would. I'd get the courage to do it. And I agree with you Kayt, I think it says a lot about who someone is, not that I'm saying that co-operating fully is the 'bad' option, even thinking about it now, I know it would be soooo hard to get the courage to fight in a resistance.

As for the parents, I dont think they have anything to do with it. I'd be very offended if someone said that I was like either of my parents in personality. I believe I am my own person and my parents don't really affect the way I behave or think about anything. I have two older brothers, and we all have totally different views, and while I think that parents have some sort of influence to their child when they're young, I dont think its that great, or that they affect the views of their children.
I know that doesnt apply in all cases, and some people really do have their views because of their parents, but being the individual person that I am, I really cant see my parents ever having an influence on me so strong that I'd have different views.

Sorry that it's so long!

[Dameon]

Hmmm...

Interesting. Okay, another question:
Those who would be willing to fight, how would you feel about fighting to help and protect those who aren't willing to fight. How would you feel knowing that you're fighting for my brother's freedom, even though he is co-operating with your enemy.
WOuld you resent those who didn't fight, or (as I do) accept that they aren't fighting.

Personally, i can understand someone else being unwilling to fight, but someone has to fight for those who won't or can't fight for themselves.

Then again, people that collaborate with the enemy, just to save their own skins. They might p!ss me off a little.

And those that won't fight. How would you feel knowing that you're doing nothing while others are dying to help free you? Would you feel grateful? Guilty? Or that those people are foolish?

Interested to hear from ya'll
KSL

[talisha]

Ok....

I think I would understand that people didnt want to fight, because when I seriously think about fighting, itu terriffies me now, and I know that some people just don't have that courage. Everyone is different.
I think I'd be likely to convince at least one person to fight, not with friendly words, but with a sort of rough encouragment.

Even though I'd understand that people literally cant fight, some people are just tooooooooo scared to do it that its not possible, I'd still be a little p!ssed off because I'd be risking my life and the life of others to fight for their freedom while they co-operated. If I were fighting to save someone who was just waiting for it to end, or at least being a little difficult without actually fighting then I'd be a lot happier about fighting for their lives, but I would still fight for them, no matter what, unless of course, they were helping the enemy.

[Elspethseeker]

Hmmm interesting I wouldn't do any physical fighting like shooting people but making trouble would be more me. Neutral though hmm. I could see though why some wouldn't want to fight and probably wouldn't mind.

[Glynnavyre]

I've never walked away from a fight yet... I'm not about to start now!

[Clare]

It takes courage to fight and NOT to fight for the right reasons. But for this kind of conversation, we really need to define to what degree our personal freedom is threatened. Are we being turned into second class citizens? Or are we being subjugated to a foreign rule? And to what extent is this foreign rule tyrannical and oppressive? i.e are they lopping off our heads when we look at the opposite gender?

[Elspeth]

My immediate reaction to this question is to admit that I'm a bit of a coward and suggest that I'd steer clear of the resistance... but upon further consideration, I don't think that's true. I absolutely detest situations where people are turned into subjects and slaves and I go all red in the face and yell and argue whenever such situations arise. So, I'm inclined to think that I would try and do something about the situation, although my weapons are more likely to be words than guns.

I think I'd take Clare and somehow escape to a neutral county (if there is one in this hypothetical conflict). From that base, we'd do what we could through law and politics, arguing and stamping our feet until things started happening. I'd probably try and arrange for some sort of gun smuggling operation to open up, guaranteeing a steady supply of weaponry to Kayt and her Resistance.

As for those who didn't fight, I certainly wouldn't resent them. I would understand exactly where they're coming from.

(Apologies to Clare for volunteering her again.)

[Min]

Good idea. If war breaks out, lets all move to Switzerland and embezzle the country's treasury ;D

Kayt to answer your second question, as to how would I feel fighting for people who refuse or can't fight for themselves...I'm going to be truthful here - they can bugger off. I'd be fighting for myself, and my immediate family and friends. Not the millions of unknowns that for all I know could be idjits themselves. Perhaps it'd help on a larger scale eventually but I'd honestly be fighting to save my own hide. If my family & friends weren't in it with me then that's thier chioce, but I'll still fight.

It's kinda like Glynna said - I've never backed down from a fight and I'm not going to start now!

[Megana]

Long life the resistance!! ;D

In case you couldn't tell already, I am most definately a fighter. I'd probably run away at first, and hide out somewhere safe until the inital threat had ended, but then I would be right in there with the underground resistance. Hehe, I went to paintball for a friends 18th not too long ago, and I had so much fun. I was one of the last ones standing in the capture the fort game, and I was on the team capturing the fort. I would have gotten the flag too, but I ran out of time But yeah, I'm definately a fighter.

As to the difference between siblings, well my brother is in the same boat as Kayts is. He's a coward, and a big softy. He's more likely to cower in fear than to fight back. But I think it just depends on the person, and their own views of themselves and of the situation.

As to how I would feel fighting to protect those that won't/can't, well, I think I'd be happy to do it. I know that alot of my friends aren't fighters, and would more than likely be held captive. So, I'd probably be alright fighting for them. It would bug me a bit that they aren't fighting back, but I'd get over it. Not everyone is as crazy as I am.

Good topic Kayt! You've really got me thinking now!

[Min]

Oh yeah sorry, the family differences aspect...
When it comes down to it, I'm not accountable for my parents or brother's mistakes...they are all grown up, they know what they're doing.

I would fight for them, if they were helpless or being forced into anything, but if they chose to sell themselves out to the enemy, there'd be nothing I could do about it. It's their lives, basically...so their choices would define the level of my support...that's really mean isn't it? I should unconditionally support them. Oh well.

[Delwyn]

yes min, u should read the Tommorow series, they're really good!!! i want to read them again coz the last time i read them was in Yr. 7

[Dameon]

Okay, a few thoughts:

1. Okay Clare, we haven't just been invaded. We are being treated as second class, being forced into slavery or servitude. Like what happened to the local Indian population when the West invaded, for example.

2. My best friend and her family go and play the laser game a lot, you know, where you shoot each other with lasers. And they always take me.
Apparently, I can be heard screaming "Die you alien scum" and so forth, but I never remember doing it.
Also, I tend to make alliances, and then break them...
(Sweet little Kayt ain't as innocent as they thought)
One time, we played this game where Sophie's mother (Sophie being my friend) got to be a vampire. And she couldn't be killed, and everyone else had to try and stay alive for fifteen minutes.
I died in five because I insisted on going out there and blasting her. I died first, and ever since then, they've called me "Kate: Brave but Stupid"
Hehe!

3. My brother has this scenario, where he reckons we get invaded, I join the resistance, he co-operates. I die, and he lives.
But I got him the other month with a counter-argument:
What if my resistance wins the war. We regain control of the country. I become a war hero.
He gets shot for being a collaborator.

You choices don't always affect you the way you think they will. Who's to say that by fighting, those of us who chose to join the Resistance WOULD die? And what's to say those who don't fight will survive?

You never know what will happen.

KSL

[Clare]

Constantly supplying weapons? I'd be asking for the removal of all guns, from both the resistance and the regime. I honestly can picture myself standing the middle of a battlefield, looking absolutely furious.. hair flying in every direction, pulling soldiers off the ground by the ears and giving them a good scolding. Words along the lines of "You should be ashamed of yourself. Your mother would be appalled."

Realistically of course, the only way to incite change for the better is through conflict. Which means guerilla warfare, massacre and all the rest. Indeed, humanity seems to exceed itself in the technology stakes, during war. We are at our epi-centre of creativeness when we are inventing new ways of killing ourselves. If it were a matter of survival, then fighting is the only option.

My first option would be to vote with my feet... a time honoured tradition. Either emigrating or becoming a hermit in some remote part of the countryside. But even with servitude and slavery, I think I could still co-operate with the authority. Because humans are fundamentally humans, civilisations are civilisations. They rise, they fall, they ebb and flow. These occupiers are no Dreadlords of the Apocalypse. While they might currently be under the spell of some timely propaganda, they are still susceptible to all the human frailty... compassion, caring for their elderly and family. There are motivations and reasons behind their actions.... and if they believe slavery and servitude are best options then clearly there is a flaw in their logic.

Flaws in logic can be solved in other ways. Mostly they are the misinterpretation of evidence by the few. Time and patience will see changes within the community of the regime even without the Resistance. I guess I'm lazy too, letting all you fighters do the hard and bloody work.

Perhaps I might resist passively.... a collaborater as Kayt put it. Perhaps I might offer you food and be punished for it. But I'd give that food equally to the occupiers. Perhaps I might spread subversive literature and tell the children of my Masters wonderful stories that highlight the values of equality and compassion. But I'd still cook their dinners and make their beds. I won't lie about my values or my beliefs, but at the same time I'll go with the flow. Wherever it takes me.

But I think I could find contentment in any lot in life and even dignity, no matter how much someone tried to take it from me. I'd accept the consequences of my decisions... even if those consequences were death, slavery, torture. But I don't think I would ever take up arms, unless it really was a survival issue (like you and only you are standing in the way of my food). I would rather live and die with as little fuss as possible and without relinquishing the stupid and naive ideal that one should live by example. Even those aiming to oppress my rights are human, they are individuals and with as much capacity to pain as the next. Why the hell should I inflict pain on them?

But as for begrudging the fighters? No. I admire them. For having the passion and the tangible will to act and to be. It must be amazing to have the kinds of will that allows you to create and change the world you see infront of you.

Me, I'm more of an observer.

[Rilla]

If our country was invaded and we were all made into slaves and things i don't know what i'd do. I'd probably go mad and someone would shoot coz i was an inconveniece.

If there was a resistence, i would probably join it. If there wasn't i'd just do whatever it was they wanted me to do, unless it involved killing someone. I'd never do that.
I wouldn't start a resistence myself, though. I'm not confident enough to do that. I just follow people.

[talisha]

I know this is going to sound awful, but I think that under those circumstances I would kill someone. I really would. IF I were fighting my enemies I wouldn't hold back, unless of course they surrendered.

Someone said on the last page about escaping to a neutral country... I would never leave, I dont think. I'd fight for my country. I love being Australian, and I'm damn proud of it and I would fight not only for my friends, family and myself, but for my country. Sorry to get all patriotic on you, but thats just what i'd do.

I don't think I could be an observer... I'd get too frustrated. I'd feel like I have to do something I'm very much for people having their own rights in everyway, and seeing people being treated like servants would just disguist me too much, I could never stand back and watch. And I would definitely rather die than be friendly and co-operate.

[Glynnavyre]

I'm all with you on the fighting for the country bit... I'd rather die in battle then serve someone eles, cause I can't live the way somebody else wants me to. I'm too much of a free spirit and I don't deal well with orders from people.

Talisha, I'd stand next to you to fight for this country. It's too precious to let some other people just march in and take it away because thery've got more fighters or guns or whatever... I would kill as well. As awful as it sounds there's to much passion in my blood stream to not contempate that sort of thing in this sort of senario. Especially if they are going to kill you, live by the sword die by it to...

But in saying all of this, I thank my lucky stars that this sort of thing would hopefully never happen. That we forever get to live with freedom, hope and opportunity... As high as Uni fees might be and as much as the ATO is useless, we still have food to eat and roofs over our heads and a wonderful bright, new day to wake up to everyday, without fear or terror...

[Clare]

And what of the consequences of these actions? The families who might never have had a problem with you or your family had you not wounded their loved ones? The longer the comflict runs, the less likely it is that people will remember who the original trangressors were. Politics is politics. A war can be declared at a seconds notice and can be put away at a seconds notice as well. But the longer it runs, the more real people die and the more embittered, unforgiving and unmerciful people become. And it's the little people you have to worry about because they hold grudges and teach the next generation.

And why were they transgressing in the first place? Why were they unhappy with where they were? Why did they chose a pitifully small and hostile environment like Australia to take over? What action have we allowed our government to commit? What resource do we have that we haven't shared?