dames vs rushton

[Kella]

It came as a shock to me too! I never thought that I'd meet people who didn't like Rushton. What's not to like?
And Scruffy what you said about me not making a good arguement for Rushton's sake - It's not like they've come up wth a good arguement for Dameon. They just keep coming up with bad things about Rushton - Picking on his bad side. And I'd love you Dameon lovers to come up with a good arguement against what Scruffy said. (Not that you could).

[Min]

scruffy said:

the animals like Rushton.

So do they like Dameon.

Rushton is a man of honour...

Dameon is a man of honour.

Yet, in the face of all this, he's humble and understands his weaknesses.

He does? I could have sworn he got all moody and selfish about his weaknesses it took Elf's reassurances to make him ok about it.

Finally, Dameon really likes Rushton.

And so on (the rest of your quote). We never said Dameon and Rushton weren't friends! But, how many friends do you have who you agree with entirely and think they don't deserve your help, despite their faults or opinions? If you're friends with someone, you help them. Dameon's an Empath - so he can feel how Rushton's feeling. He could feel that Rushton feels himself inadequate. Perhaps Dameon initially hung around to ensure that Rushton would grow up into the leader he was meant to be. Remember in Obernewtyn where Elspeth dubs Dameon their leader? That's a really powerful section of the novel. Dameon's a born leader. And being a leader sometimes means just being there for morale, to boost people's confidence, even if they overtake you in the process.
Rushton's a leader because his last name's Seraphim.

Even I have to acknowledge that this kind of intensity in a relationship can be incredibly seductive. But, the truth is Elspeth has never seemingly taken that step, although it appears Dameon has.

Elspeth always has trouble realising anything that involves emotion, especially emotional attachment.

I think arguing that Rushton is more manly that Dameon is counter-productive, because it doesn't really advance the debate any further.

Thank you!! We agree !!

Secondly, he's really spunky...and Elspeth undeniably finds Rushton attractive.

I see your point about psyche, but really, this is a poor excuse, considering all the other good things you've listed about Rushton are just as equally part of Dameon.
It makes Elspeth seem shallow, if we look at this list - the only real differences are their appearances.

What else is so good about Rushton? What does he have that Dameon doesn't, that Elspeth needs?

[Kella]

I think that another reason why Elspeth loves Rushton is because he's not a misfit. Just think about it - He is the only one she has left of her old life. Her old life with her parents and her brother. She didn't want to be a misfit. She just wanted to be normal and Rushton's the most normal thing she knows. Not many people like change, they need something to hold on to the life they had. (I know - Generalisations, I'm sorry, I'll stop now)

[scruffy]

Super quick, because I'm really meant to be writing about something totally unrelated to this...

this is a poor excuse, considering all the other good things you've listed about Rushton are just as equally part of Dameon

That's exactly the point. Dameon and Rushton are BOTH equally good choices. They are both characters with flaws and with good points, and they both would make women everywhere swoon.

But, Elspeth only find Rushton attractive, which implies that regardless of all else, she loves Rushton. The thing is, we only have Elspeths perspective on how cute or not Rushton and Dameon are - Dameon might be pretty spunky to you or me, but not to Elspeth.

Why Rushton and not Dameon? Well, that's a question for the ages... Why does anyone love one person over another? Why love one identical twin and not his brother?

The simple, obvious answer is as Min suggests - that Rushton has something that Dameon doesn't... I've said that I feel Elspeth enjoys being challenged by Rushton - he makes her want to be a better person. Indeed, I think Rushton vision for Obernewtyn is partly what inspires Elspeth to complete her quest. Ruhston is also determined to not let go of Elspeth - something that everyone else she has ever loved (or who has ever loved her) has done.

Ultimately, Rushton needs Elspeth, and I think Elspeth really needs to to be needed - not to save the world, but as a woman.

If you're friends with someone, you help them. Dameon's an Empath - so he can feel how Rushton's feeling. He could feel that Rushton feels himself inadequate. Perhaps Dameon initially hung around to ensure that Rushton would grow up into the leader he was meant to be.

True. But I think the fact that Dameon actively supports Rushton and Elspeth's love speaks to Dameon himself beleiveing that Rushton is more capable of giving Elspeth the love she needs...

[Arctic Firefox]

elspethinnle said:

I think that another reason why Elspeth loves Rushton is because he's not a misfit. Just think about it - He is the only one she has left of her old life. Her old life with her parents and her brother. She didn't want to be a misfit. She just wanted to be normal and Rushton's the most normal thing she knows. Not many people like change, they need something to hold on to the life they had. (I know - Generalisations, I'm sorry, I'll stop now)

Actually, Rushton has some very latent talent, so technically he is a Misfit. I don't think Elspeth would want to be anything else than a Misfit; remember how much she suffered in the Druid's camp when she couldn't use her talents?

[scruffy]

Actually, whilst she was in the Druid's camp, Elspeth says she would hate to be bonded to an unTalent - "it would be like being bonded to a statue".

Rushton is Talented - he is just unable to use his Talent.

[Kaylan-R]

I think that one of the reasons Elspeth loves Rushton is because she wants to help him find his talents secretly. It seems strange that she would love him amd not someone as talented as herself, but you know she wants to help people and she is a very determined girl and so thats one of the reasons that i think she loves rushton, its because she wants to help him. She doesnt see Dameon or Matthew as people more than her friends because she is so engrosed with helping Rushton.

[scruffy]

kaylanr said:

I think that one of the reasons Elspeth loves Rushton is because she wants to help him find his talents secretly.

So... you think that Rushton was right at the end of Ashling - he's not really good enough for her as he his?

I don't think this puts Elspeth in a very nice light... I don't think she has any desire to change Rushton at all...

Think of it like this. If you met a guy who was very nice and very handsome, but only spoke mandarin, no english at all, and you spoke no mandarin, it would be very hard to to have a relationship with him. However, if he could speak even only broken english, or you only broken mandarin, a relationship becomes possible.

I see the whole thing with Talents the same way - a bonding between Talents involves a mind-meld, something that require both parties to have Talent. It doesn't matter if Rushton can't use his Talent on his own, he's still capable of participating in a way an unTalent could never.

It seems strange that she would love him amd not someone as talented as herself,

That's like saying it's strange that I'm not as good looking as Mr Scruffy. Equality within a relationship has a lot more to do with how each party treat each other than the attributes of those parties... Mr Scruffy is a *lot* more intelligent than I am (he has a PhD!), but he still loves me (at least, that's what he says...). And to my knowledge, he's not secretly trying to make me smarter... although he does make me eat a lot of fish

If Elspeth only wanted someone as Talented as she was, she'd be very lonely and very sad... The whole thing between Elspeth and Rushton is that she loves him just as he is, and she has no desire for him to be anything else...

[me]

Is this debate ever going to end? I mean seriously, not everyone is going to be in agreement, ever!

[Kella]

Well the fact that the Dameon-lovers can't get over is that Elspeth IS with Rushton and not with Dameon. It doesn't matter what you come up with, that isn't going to change unless IC wants it too!

[Kaylan-R]

scruffy said:

kaylanr said:

I think that one of the reasons Elspeth loves Rushton is because she wants to help him find his talents secretly.

So... you think that Rushton was right at the end of Ashling - he's not really good enough for her as he his?

oh no no no no no no, that'sot what I was trying to imply. Now that's just turning everything back on me! What I meant was that by wanting to find his talents secretly, Elspeth loved him enough to even want to do that in teh first place. Rushton thinks he's not good enough but of course I know taht that is silly to say! Im not stupid and I'm not agreeing with him.

I don't think this puts Elspeth in a very nice light... I don't think she has any desire to change Rushton at all...

Of course she doesn't....that's not what I meant!

I see the whole thing with Talents the same way - a bonding between Talents involves a mind-meld, something that require both parties to have Talent. It doesn't matter if Rushton can't use his Talent on his own, he's still capable of participating in a way an unTalent could never.

I know that! And I;m not trying to say that Elf can't bond with Rushton because Rushton has Latenet abilities. Rushton has latent farseeking and Elf can help him make them better. That's onlyw hat I'm trying to say.

It seems strange that she would love him amd not someone as talented as herself,

That's like saying it's strange that I'm not as good looking as Mr Scruffy.

I didn't mean that either. It's just that, in Obernewtyn, no one there bond's with an untalented. Elsepth herself said it would be horrible. I'm just saying thing's from the Misfit's point of view.

[Lauren Hedgehog]

elspethinnle said:

Well the fact that the Dameon-lovers can't get over is that Elspeth IS with Rushton and not with Dameon. It doesn't matter what you come up with, that isn't going to change unless IC wants it too!

As an Elf/Dameon shipper, I just have to say that it's not that I can't get over Elf being with Rushton. In fact I won't even be upset (though maybe slightly annoyed ) if she does stay with Rushton- after all it is her choice (or IC's ) not mine. It's just that I believe that Dameon would be better for Elf and that Dameon deserves to be happy - so I ship Elf/Dameon

[Siryn]

Who says Dames aint happy? he's probably actually in love and thats why he wanted to stay in Sador.

[Kaylan-R]

I think he stayed in Sador because he was sad for Elspeth. He wanted to stay away because she was grieving about so many things and he felt that he would just be in her way.

[Siryn]

I still maintain there's been some luvin in the hot hot sand.

[Kaylan-R]

with what - the camels?

[Siryn]

if you like. After all, i am a Rushton supporter.

[Kaylan-R]

That makes no sense! Who did he love then if it wasn't a camel?

[Siryn]

Well, obviously she, he or camel hasn't been introduced yet.

[Kaylan-R]

why do you say that? HE COULD BE GAY!!!

NO, i dont gbelive that. But im just trying to get you back

[Siryn]

lol. you just dont WANT Dames to be happy. Gay happy or otherwise!

[Kaylan-R]

lol I LOVE DAMES!! HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT!!??

[Dameon]

Elspethinnle, I think it's extremely rude of you to make such a sweeping generalisation about the Dameon supporters. How can you presume to know exactly what we "can't get over"? Not only have you made this remark, but earlier you claimed that none of us has made a good argument for Dameon/Elf!

We have made MULTIPLE arguments for Dameon/Elf, and those arguing against us on the Rushton side have remarked frequently upon the strength of our arguments, just as we frequently are struck by the strength of theirs. Moreover, the Dameon-camp are QUITE capable of "getting over" the fact that Rushton and Elspeth are together. We simply don't think that's the best outcome there could ever be, but really all we do is hope for our better outcome. Personally, I am certain Rushton and Elspeth will stay together. That doesn't mean I can't talk about other alternatives. Incidentally, there is PLENTY not to like about Rushton, in my opinion, and in Min's opinion, and in Miky's and Lauren Hedgehog's. We have frequently noted these things down.

That you have apparently failed to notice these, the salient details of our argument, makes me suspect you haven't read much of this thread. I don't see how else you could have failed to pick up on these things.

This remark:

I'd love you Dameon lovers to come up with a good arguement against what Scruffy said. (Not that you could).

is DEEPLY DEEPLY hurtful, and I was extremely upset by it when I first read it. Scruffy said she disagreed with you (even though she is on your side) and you proceeded to defend yourself by insulting the Dameon-camp and essentially calling us idiots.

I love this thread, and I really enjoy arguing with the Rushton-camp. I think we've discussed a lot of interesting things, and we've explored a huge number of issues relating to relationships, in a general sense, and in the Oberchron. The debate here is generally extremely well-informed, carefully considered and above all, very civil, and mutually respectful.

This is the last I will say of this matter, but please in future respect the Netiquette that is so important to us here. Just because we disagree on this issue is no reason for you to be mean. If you'd like to argue Dameon or Rushton in a respectful way, then please do and I'll be happy to argue with you until we're both blue in the face! But please please please don't be so disrespectful of those who disagree with you, and please in future consider before posting something, whether or not it might be hurtful to others.

Thankyou.

[Kella]

Well I'm sorry if I have offended any of you and if you want I'll just stop posting on this board okay?

[Swallow]

What we have here is a classic example of misinterpretation. Elspethinnle, please do not be so dramatic in your threats. We like everyone to be comfortable and have a happy time on Obernet, but this works both ways. We do not want you to leave, but some of your comments, as you have noticed, were taken to be hurtful. This is where the Nettiquette come in handy. Please click on this link and heed the advice that has been compiled for your benefit.

We do not want you to leave, but obviously something in the manner of your writing has come across as rude, even though you may not have intended it. So please read this and if you have any questions, feel free to PM me, or any of the other MoOs or Guardians, we’re here to help.