dames vs rushton

[Arctic Firefox]

Min quite rightly refused to dignify Larana's post (see below), but I'm not feeling that dignified tonight(Mwhahahaha!) ...

Please, the man is possibly the biggest wus and sissy on the planet, he has no manliness whatsoever, how could you ever find him attractive? He is like a mouse, timid and so painfully over-sensitive that it really really annoys me and in answer to all the terrible anti-rushton sentiment I officially declare myself as an anti-dameon person.

Manliness? Please humour me and define what you believe "manliness" to be. As a male myself, I have a rather vested interest in the subject.

Does manliness mean the whole "Me Tarzan You Jane" hair-dragging caveman attitude? If so, then I suppose I'm quite unmanly as well - and all the better for it. In fact, I find I get along far better with women because I don't feel the need to talk about sport and beer all day long.

Your implication that Rushton is "manly" because Dameon is not sets up an interesting contrast - do we treat the two men as polar opposites? In other words, since Dameon is sensitive and caring, Rushton must be insensitive and uncaring. But we already knew that one!

Seriously though, Rushton toys with Elspeth's emotions in a way Dameon would never do. One example is when Rushton goes on his "you don't love me because I'm not a Misfit" sulk in Ashling. This is one of the most putridly obvious attempts to make someone feel guilty in all the literature I have ever read (and I've read a lot). This, by the way, is not a criticism of IC's writing style; just an attack on Rushton's character.

But I'm more interested in your definition of "manliness", because then we can continue the debate.

[Dameon]

Right on, bro!!!

Rather than "unmanly", I see Dameon as mature. Rushton is immature, in that he is selfish and possessive in his love for Elspeth, while Dameon has reached the understanding that what she wants is important, and while it may make him sad that she doesn't love him, he takes consolation in knowing she is happy (and so is his friend Rushton).

Rushton could NEVER do that, and if that's what manly is, give me a wussy girly man!!!

[scruffy]

Seriously though, Rushton toys with Elspeth's emotions in a way Dameon would never do. One example is when Rushton goes on his "you don't love me because I'm not a Misfit" sulk in Ashling. This is one of the most putridly obvious attempts to make someone feel guilty in all the literature I have ever read (and I've read a lot).

It's also a very human reaction - I love person A + Person A does not love me --> there must be something wrong with me --> Person A does not love me because I'm faulty --> I love Person A, so I will tell them that I understand why they don't love me. I'm not saying that it's necessarily rational, but whoever behaves rationally when they are in love? It's a very REAL reaction.

I've just spent the past two weeks rereading Ober, Farseekers and Ashling in an attempt to further understand WHY I ship Rushton. I've come to an interesting conclusion - Elf was far less opposed to her feelings and Rushton's before she discovered her quest at the end of Farseekers. Indeed, you get the impression that she could quite happily allowed herself to be in love and be loved, right until she finds her life has a higher purpose. From that point she does everything she can to deny Rushton.

Elspeth is very cruel to Rushton throughout Ashling - even devising ways to tell him about Swallow's kiss to "punish" him for daring to spend time with Freya. Even throughout all of Ashling and Rushton's sulkiness, it cannot be denyed that she does love him.

Ruhston can see that Elf loves him, and yet she continues to rebuff him at every turn. WE know why, but Rushton doesn't - Rushton comes to the same conclusion that any person would, that she must find something about him abhorrent. Dames can accept that Elf doesn't love him, but for Rushton it's much harder to accept that she DOES love him, and yet refuses to accept him... It's a much more personal slight.

(As for maniless or otherwise, I think this is a strange comment to have made... )

[Kaylan-R]

This is just like me and my relationship. I am one of the most meanest people you would ever meet and that's saying something, though I can be very kind when I want to. I think that's the same with Rushton. He done that with Elf in Ashling because he didnt think he was good enough because he has Latent misfit powers, and I can understand that. People can feel "not good enough for their loved ones" and I dont think that makes them a wuss.

GO RUSHTON!!

[Arctic Firefox]

I suppose these situations depend on the person, Scruffy. I haven't exactly been in a situation where my affections were unrequited, but I can't see myself asking "what's wrong with me?" because love is a completely unpredictable emotion which doesn't measure people according to a fixed set of merits. As we can see from Larana's post, she is clearly interested in "manly" men. Others would be inclined elsewhere.

Something I feel people keep forgetting is that Elspeth watched her parents burn at the stake. And then she felt betrayed by Jes when he became a Herder's assistant. She probably has huge psychological traumas which haven't been properly worked through yet. Now, I don't know whether anyone at Obernewtyn knows about this bit of Elspeth's past, but you would hope that if Rushton did, he would allow Elspeth the time and space to come to terms with this. Elspeth witnessing the death of her parents is something IC doesn't harp on very much, but I sense it will come to the fore in The Sending. When it does, I think Dameon will be the only one able to help Elspeth.

But again, I understand that dealing with heartbreak is an individual experience. Regardless of how much I loved that person, I would be able to deal with them being happy with someone else, or just not feeling "that way" about me. It might take a while, but at the end of the day, you have to decide whether you want your love to be selfish. As Kayt implied, Dameon's love for Elspeth is clearly unselfish, while Rushton's is almost viciously selfish.

[scruffy]

I don't think Rushton is vicious - he's not a saint by any strecth, but he's not as bad as Ariel.

The thing is, Elspeth clearly loves Rushton, and always have. She has not been coerced into this situation - these are genuine, real feelings. Whilst she describes Obernewtyn as lacking "its sweetness" when Dameon is gone, she misses Rushton like food and water and air.

[Kella]

I agree with scruffy. I mean how do we know that Elspeth's feelings for Dameon aren't coerced there? She loves Rushton and he loves her. I don't think that's selfish of either of them. They can't help it if they have feelings for each other. And when you say that Dameon's feelings aren't selfish, you may be right but if he really wanted to be with Elspeth he would be selfish. He'd try anything to make her love him. That's just what love does to you. No normal man would just sit there and let their love be with another man. But then again, Dameon isn't really normal, is he?

[larana]

What I meant by 'manliness' is that Dameon is all softness and tenderness whereas Rushton can happily combine the two: he is sweet and caring but he also can be strong and assertive. Maybe I am alone here but I need a combination of those two things in a man. I need to feel like a man can offer virility and power as well as sweetness and love. For my part, dameon is seriously lacking in the virility stakes.

I don't mean that I want a Neandethal man who hurls me to the ground and has his way with me, nor do I mean someone who can only talk about sport and beer... I want someone who is not all sensitivity and emotion, someone who can combine those ASSETS (yes I do think they are assets) with something a bit more carnal and primal. This happy combination is my ideal.

So whilst Dames is a great person to have as a friend I feel like he lacks the extra virility Rushie has... and I think a powerful woman like elf needs a powerful man.

In short, Dames just doesn't have any attraction for me at all. Plus in a totally superficial way, Rushie seems like he would be hotter than Dames (don't take that part too seriously)

Added later: although there is a psych study that showed that the kind of man women want depends on where they are in their mentrual cycle. While ovulating they want a virile strong caveman type (ie Vin Diesel) and when they are not ovulating they want a sweeter, more sensitive looking type (ie Leo Dicaprio). So maybe Elf could have them both at different times (jokes)

[Dameon]

I mean how do we know that Elspeth's feelings for Dameon aren't coerced there?

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do we know her feelings for Rushton aren't? If Elspeth's feelings for ANYONE are artificial, it is her feelings for Rushton. She's said herself that she thought the mindbond had something to do with her, and confused her. How can you justify the suggestion her feelings for Dames are coerced? By who? And for that matter, what feelings are you talking about? Unless my dreams all come true, they're just friends.

[scruffy]

I agree with scruffy. I mean how do we know that Elspeth's feelings for Dameon aren't coerced there?

Um, my point is that Elspeth doesn't have feelings for Dames (which Kayt, I notice, agrees with ). i think it's self-evident that her friendship with Dames is genuine and true.

Kayt makes the very succint point that we can't know if Elspeth's feelings for Rushton weren't induced via the mind meld. The truth is we don't, but Elspeth softened to Rushton after his tenderness to her in the aftermath of Jes' death - the seeds for her love were sown then. Regardless, I would propose that the origin of the feelings is immaterial. Just as Elspeth can't differentiate with Dameon the blindness, the Talent and the Man, I would say that the truth between Elspeth and Rushton lies in the existence of their love, not the origin thereof. My original point was that Rushton hasn't coerced Elspeth into loving him - she loves him of her own accord.

[esspess]

sorry but i have to say i am sooo far behind on this its not even funny at all, i cant even bring myself to read it as the posts are all sooo long. and i have this thing where i have to read every post since i last posted before i can post about it so this is gonna take a while. and the parts i have read makes me want to say something but they are all so long ago and there is too many of them i dont think there is a point *sighs* it looks like its gotten really good too, well i hope you're all having fun without me

P.S sorry everyone about the irrelevence of this post.

[Min]

larana said:

What I meant by 'manliness' is that Dameon is all softness and tenderness whereas Rushton can happily combine the two: he is sweet and caring but he also can be strong and assertive. Maybe I am alone here but I need a combination of those two things in a man. I need to feel like a man can offer virility and power as well as sweetness and love. For my part, dameon is seriously lacking in the virility stakes.

Important thing to note here: we don't see every side of every character. We see Elspeth's perspective of them. To Elspeth, Dameon is someone she can rely on, because he's always so sensible, so calming, can see through the fog and make sense of the world for her. That says strength to me. That says protection, regardless of sex. It's completely irrelevant in the relationship world what sex a person is - if they can get that sense that everything will be all right from a person, that's the basis of a strong relationship. Regardless of the sex of the person, or their apparent virility, I can't stress that enough.
Second thing: Dameon is very, very good at supressing his emotions around Elspeth. He always had his shield up. So, he's denying himself his 'manly urges' (oh, I'm laughing at that now...), suppressing them, so as not to make Elspeth aware of his feelings. He could be a dynamo, but we don't know - because he's got control.

quoting Elspethinnle:

I mean how do we know that Elspeth's feelings for Dameon aren't coerced there?

Now, since you've raised this, I'll raise an extremely relevant part of my arguments.
We also hear that Dameon is "Rushton's Conscience".
How do we know that Rushton's feeling for Elspeth aren't a product of Dameon's own feelings? Dameon keeps his shield up around Elspeth, because she is talented, and would feel it pretty quickly how strongly he felt for her.
But does he do the same around Rushton? That he's called Rushton's conscience suggests they spend a lot of time together, strategising and whatnot. So, who's to say that Dameon's own feelings didn't imprint on Rushton's mind, by accident?

[scruffy]

min said:

So, he's denying himself his 'manly urges' (oh, I'm laughing at that now...),

*rofl* That's going to have me in giggles for a while... I'm just trying to see Dames as a dynamo, and failing! (I just got sent the cleo bachelors of the year, and I just can't see Dames oiled up and reclining suggestively...

suppressing them, so as not to make Elspeth aware of his feelings. He could be a dynamo, but we don't know - because he's got control.

How do we know that Rushton's feeling for Elspeth aren't a product of Dameon's own feelings? Dameon keeps his shield up around Elspeth, because she is talented, and would feel it pretty quickly how strongly he felt for her.
But does he do the same around Rushton? That he's called Rushton's conscience suggests they spend a lot of time together, strategising and whatnot. So, who's to say that Dameon's own feelings didn't imprint on Rushton's mind, by accident?

Because Rushton was in love with Elspeth BEFORE he met Dames. Although that's very interesting argument... But if Rushton was manipulated into falling in love with Elsepeth via Dameon's projections of his feelings, why wasn't Matty, who spent a great deal of time with Dames?

[Min]

scruffy said:

Because Rushton was in love with Elspeth BEFORE he met Dames. Although that's very interesting argument... But if Rushton was manipulated into falling in love with Elsepeth via Dameon's projections of his feelings, why wasn't Matty, who spent a great deal of time with Dames?

Simple: Because Dameon knows Matty and Elspeth have the talents to receive his emnations and know they're from him. He's holding his shield up around them.
Everyone believes Rushton to have latent ability, so Dameon doesn't have to be on guard around him.

Rushton was in love with Elspeth BEFORE he met Dameon?
I can't see a 19 year old falling in love with a 14-year old girl...I don't buy the love at first sight thing that's implied at their first meeting. The first indication we really get of Rushton's "feelings" is near the end with the "why do you plague me?" line.
(which can be interpreted many ways, but lets just say by 'plagued', he does mean he can't get her out of his head).
At this point, it's been a couple of seasons, enough so Dameon can form connections with Elf. Dames and Elf are friends at this point, seeing each other nearly every day.
Rushton sees her occaionally on the farms, enough time to give her a shovel and tell her to get to work. Rushton also sees the other misfits, as he's the overseer, and may have had time to pick up on Dameons few wandering empath emnations, when he's not shielding them. I'm not saying Rushton's feelings aren't his own; but they've been enhanced by Dameon's feelings. This enhancement could have turned interest into love?

We don't get a real sense of their "love" until Farseekers (when the posessive!Rushton kicks in), two years after the initial battle, two years after Dameon and Rushton have been working closely together.

[Kella]

But Rushton knew Dameon before he met Elspeth, didn't he? And Matthew was taken by the slavers so how do we know what his feelings for Elspeth were? I mean what Min said could be true about the imprint of feelings because anything is possible. Even though I think that Rushton's feelings for Elspeth are... different in a sense. They are in fact two different men with two different personalities so that would make their intentions and their feelings different wouldn't it? And I think if Dameon's feelings DID imprint on Rushton then there would have to be at least a little bit of that feeling already in Rushton, so then it wouldn't be entirely Dameon's feelings anyway. All this thinking is actually starting to make my brain hurt. And who knows? We're probably just coming up with ideas this farfetched because we can. But I don't think that IC would make everything this complicated because it would be too confusing for her readers.

[Dameon]

Min and I will always continue to dream of a day when Rushton is gone and Dameon/Elspeth is canon. No matter how unlikely our theories may be, the dream will never die!

And we know Matty isn't in love with Elspeth because someone asked IC and she said so.

[Min]

elspethinnle said:

And I think if Dameon's feelings DID imprint on Rushton then there would have to be at least a little bit of that feeling already in Rushton, so then it wouldn't be entirely Dameon's feelings anyway.

Well, that is what I said at the end of my last statement. That Rushton's feelings are his own. But Dameon's feelings could have effected them, enforced them, even made interest or intrigue turn into love.

ksl said:

Min and I will always continue to dream of a day when Rushton is gone and Dameon/Elspeth is canon. No matter how unlikely our theories may be, the dream will never die!

Here here!!

[Kella]

What's so good about Dameon anyway? I know you all love him but if I was Elspeth I wouln't want to date someone who could read my feelings and mess with them if he wanted to. That would be freaky. Why would anyone want to have someone influencing their feelings?

[Fuil Dearg]

larana said:

What I meant by 'manliness' is that Dameon is all softness and tenderness whereas Rushton can happily combine the two: he is sweet and caring but he also can be strong and assertive. Maybe I am alone here but I need a combination of those two things in a man. I need to feel like a man can offer virility and power as well as sweetness and love. For my part, dameon is seriously lacking in the virility stakes.

Dameon is one of the strongest people in the entire Obernewtyn Chronicles so far. Various characters have remarked on his strength and we have seen it in throughout the books. If anyone actually needs examples then ask and i'll provide some.
Dameon is assertive with Elspeth at times, usually if not always when he advises her on what action she ought to take for the sake of her own well-being. He is not agressively assertive and there is no need for him to be so.

larana said:

..they want a virile strong caveman type (ie Vin Diesel)

fair enough. Vin Diesel is cool.

larana said:

..they want a sweeter, more sensitive looking type (ie Leo Dicaprio).

Ewwww.

elspethinnle said:

What's so good about Dameon anyway? I know you all love him but if I was Elspeth I wouln't want to date someone who could read my feelings and mess with them if he wanted to. That would be freaky. Why would anyone want to have someone influencing their feelings?

Reading your partner's feelings and being in a position to mess with them if you wanted to... isn't that what happens in most romantic relationships? It's one reason why trust is such an important element in a close relationship. Your post reminds me a lot of X-Men 3 and people being afraid of the power of 'mutents'. Don't people realise that people in general have so much power anyway with any mutent abilities? look at all the violence in the world, and not just wars... domestic violence. people are already too vulnerable that it it wouldn't make the sort of difference people think it would. if you think you can't contain it with police or armies or whatever taht's half irrelavent anyway because if it gets to taht stage it's already too late. i suppose much the same would apply with misfits in the world of O-Chron.

[Min]

elspethinnle said:

What's so good about Dameon anyway? I know you all love him but if I was Elspeth I wouln't want to date someone who could read my feelings and mess with them if he wanted to. That would be freaky. Why would anyone want to have someone influencing their feelings?

Turn what you've just said on it's head.
Why would *anyone* want to be with a misfit at all?
Why would anyone want to be with Elspeth? She has the power to not only read your mind, but coerce you to do things against your will.

A relationship implies trust. As all the Misfits have between each other, to not use their talents wrongfully.
So your point there is irrelevant.

And, Elspethinnle, what's so good about Rushton?

[Kaylan-R]

lol this whole thread is amazingly funny! ;D

Of course Dameon loves Elsepth and that's wht he always has his shield up, for what other reason could he have for doing it? He's gay ...NO WAY! He's protecting Elspeth because she's allready stressed out about so many things, and so many people love her so he feels as a kind and emotional person, that he doesn't want to add more onto her burdens.

I dont think that Dameon would ever abuse his powers! That's just sooooo not Dameon. He loves Elspeth and he respects everyone!

Isn't it funny that sooooo many people love elspeth though?
There's Rushton. Dameon, Matthew, Swallow....who knows who else lol?

[scruffy]

Does Swallow actually love Elspeth? I though he was just a flirt...

[Kella]

I thought this was a thread arguing between Dameon and Rushton, not on why anyone would love Elspeth. And what's so good about Rushton you ask? What's not good about him? He is moody but come on if Dameon is so perfect why doesn't Elspeth feel the same way about him as he does her? Why does she love Rushton? She loves his personality along with everything else about him. She'd never love Dameon because he doesn't trust her. And if he did why is he shielding his feelings from her? He's supposed to be about honesty and openess and all that and he can't even admit to her his feelings. No offence but to me that's a little wimpy.
Dameon is like a girl friend to Elspeth. (For the Dameon lovers I'm not calling him a girl I just mean he's more feminine). He gives her emotional support and advice along with friendship. How many women do you guys know that go for their more feminine guy friends? They don't! They go for the strong masculine type - Rushton. That's just what happens 99.9% of the time anyway.
And Swallow is a flirt. He's probably one of those guys who pretend to be interested until they get what they want then lose interest completely.
I guess the reason that all the guys in the book are in love with Elspeth is because she's strong, independant, smart and pretty. Isn't that what all guys look for in a woman?

[scruffy]

Just in case anyone missed it, I ship Rushton.

elspethinnle said:

He is moody but come on if Dameon is so perfect why doesn't Elspeth feel the same way about him as he does her?

Not a very convincing argument for "what's so good about Rushton". If I may:

What's so good about Ruhston?

First of all, he's good with animals. Animals have a keen self of a person's true self, and anyone who's good with animals must have a true heart, because if they didn't, the animals would know. Tied in with this is that Maruman likes Rushton - if there was anything dodgy about Rushton, Maruman would know, and he'd let Elspeth know... Cats are like that - my cat, Pumpkin (if you ask, I'll show you a picture ) would hiss and spit at any man I brought home until I met Mr Scruffy, and when Pumpkin curled up in his lap, I knew, I'd found The One. Course, it's never that simple, really, but the point remains. Animals know. Especially the animals in IC's world. And the animals like Rushton.

Secondly, he's really spunky That might seem superficial, but as I've mentioned, physical attraction is an important part of love... (And he has really sexy eyes). That doesn't mean that only hot people get to fall in love, but it's about perspective. I think Mr Scruffy is gorgeous, and I can't beleive my luck in having married him (he's a nice person too). However, my best friend's husband is equally a really nice person, but I don't find him very attractive. My friend, however, DOES think her husband is attractive. So, somewhere in a person's psyche, we relate romantic love and physical attraction. They are linked. And Elspeth undeniably finds Rushton attractive.

Thridly, Rushton is a man of honour. He has a dream, and he wants to make the world a better place. He has strong principles and he beleives in himself and those around him. Rushton is the kind of person who not only brings out the best in people, but he also makes people want to strive higher - to acheive more than mediocrity. He's inspirational, and he beleives in his friends. Rushton also has an astonishing capacity to love, and to see the best in people. Yet, in the face of all this, he's humble and understands his weaknesses.

Finally, Dameon really likes Rushton. Do you think Dameon would have such a higgh regard for someone who was controlling and selfish and mean? Dameon is an Empath, which basically means he has a hotline straight to a person's soul, and Dameon likes Rushton so much he devotes all of his time to helping Rushton acheive his aims. Dameon knows how both Elspeth and Rushton feel about each other, and he isn't filled with apprehension about it. If he thought that Elspeth would be hurt by loving Rushton, would he have really left her alone with him and stayed in Sador?

Dameon is like a girl friend to Elspeth. (For the Dameon lovers I'm not calling him a girl I just mean he's more feminine). He gives her emotional support and advice along with friendship.

Dameon and Matthew have long been Elspeth's best friends (human friends, I mean). The three of them have bond more akin to that of siblings, I think... Elspeth met and befriends Dameon and Matthew at a very vunerable time in her life, after a period of enforced solitude. I think that the bonds that tie these three together are stronger than a usual "friendship" would be - it goes beyond that. It's why we cried when Matthew was taken, and why we weep uncontrollably when Dameon appears in the doorway in TKP... Because Matthew and Dameon have become a part of Elspeth. Even I have to acknowledge that this kind of intensity in a relationship can be incredibly seductive. But, the truth is Elspeth has never seemingly taken that step, although it appears Dameon has.

They go for the strong masculine type - Rushton. That's just what happens 99.9% of the time anyway.

Broad generalisations are bad, mmkay?

There are more that two types of men in the world, and women go for the men who best fulfill their needs. I think arguing that Rushton is more manly that Dameon is counter-productive, because it doesn't really advance the debate any further. It's fairly obvious that Rushton has more machismo that Dameon, but for many women that's as much a turn off as a turn on. Even Min has acknowledged that Rushton is spunky.

I feel that Rushton fulfills Elspeth's needs much more than Dameon ever could.

And Swallow is a flirt. He's probably one of those guys who pretend to be interested until they get what they want then lose interest completely.

No, I don't think he's like that. He's not cruel. He's... fun, and honourable. Swallow pushed Elspeth's boundaries and forced her to confront her comfort zone, but he has never lead her down a garden path. Swallow's interactions with Elspeth have alwasy had a fun, teasing feel to them. He's not a prick.

[larana]

I have to say that until I came to this website I never even suspected that Dameon loved Elf. It never even occurred to me, and then I read some posts and realised that not only did people speculate about this but that IC herself said that is was so...
Imagine my confusion when I discovered this. I could not have been more shocked if people had of told me that the moon was made of cheese.
It may be because of this that I love rushie so much, I never even suspected an interest from Dames. I may have to re-read the books looking for Dameon-Elspeth love because I have never seen evidence myself (ps I do know the arguments people advanced etc, it just never hit me that he loved her).

So anyway, the point of this was really to say that my original perceptions of Dameon upon reading the books many years ago where such that any hint of him loving Elf came as a complete shock to me which is why I find it so hard to imagine him and Elf together and consequently probably why I love rushie so much.

This does not mean I don't think Rushie has value all of his own (ie independent of the fact that I always thought Elf and Rushie would get together), but it kind of explains where my vehement anti-dameon and elf stance comes from...

Yay Rushton- I love you, but more importantly Elf loves you!!!