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Post by Dameon on Aug 2, 2006 10:42:54 GMT 11
Geez! I go away for a little, and what happens?
Why, Esspess? You can't just say something like that and assume it to be true. Yes, that's what happened with Rushton, but he is a different person, and a person that always confused Elspeth because she never quite knew where she stood with him. That isn't the case with Dameon, is it? It's not Elspeth's character to be confused before she realises she's in love with someone. It's only happened once, so we can hardly call it a character trait. If Elspeth realises, as she MUST surely do, that she's in love with Dames, it will be different to the way it was with Rushton. Because Dameon is a different man and because Elspeth is a little older and wiser and not SCARED OF HIM!
Now, Scruffy!
What Min said, but I shall further elaborate, because I think this is an important point.
First of all, yes, she carries Dameon's letter with her everywhere she goes. Elspeth is a busy woman, yet she's reading his letter in every spare second she can get. That's not conjecture, she actually SAYS as much in TKP (where, I don't know, because I am at uni). So, let's make that clear right now. Elspeth misses Dameon very much.
Of course she doesn't miss him the way she misses Matty. The difference between Dameon is Sador and Matty being taking by Slavers is so obvious, I don't even feel the need to say any more on the subject.
But does she miss him more or less than she misses Rushton? More. Yes, she misses Rushton very much, to the point of coercing his image into her room, but she only seems to miss him when she remembers to. Elspeth even states (again, I'm not sure where) that when she's really busy she entirely forgets that Rushton isn't there. What? That doesn't sound like a devoted woman pining away for the man she loves.
And personally, I don't agree that she should be going all crazy when the man she loves isn't there, anyway. I think if Elspeth and Dameon were together, they'd both handle short-term seperation in a mature way, because they both love each other, but they also both want what's best for Obernewtyn. Rushton, on the other hand, gets sooky if Elspeth goes anywhere on missions for Obernewtyn. Is this romantic? Not in my opinion. He's not good for her, he's not protecting her. He's CRUSHING her. He is such a jealous, possessive, PARANOID man that he can't bear to let Elspeth have her indpendence, even when it's for the good of Obernewtyn. He says he's not worthy to lead Obernewtyn, and when I think about his behaviour whenever Elspeth has a mission, I have to wonder if he isn't right.
Dameon and Elspeth love each other, but they also know how to let go. I personally think the best relationships can often be between two people who would be perfectly happy without each other. I think Dameon and Elspeth have that kind of relationship.
Oh, and Arien!
Can't say I'd be bothered by it. Your friends care for you and help you out because they love you. What difference does it make if they love you in a more romantic way than you realised? They still love you, don't they? Of course, I'd be very bothered by it if I didn't love the fellow back in the same romantic way, but as my theory (and Min and Miky's and our whole camp's theory) is that Elspeth DOES love Dameon that way, I just don't see it as being a problem.
He hasn't lied to her, emotionally. He's simply witheld from her what he thinks would hurt them both. Just as she witholds her true Quest with him.
One more thing. The person you love should be someone you can be completely open and honest with. Someone you feel comfortable sharing life with, sharing your problems with and sharing everything with.
Who is the one person Elspeth has ever seriously contemplated telling about her Quest? Who is the one person she has ever felt inclined to share her burden with?
Is it Rushton?
No. It's Dameon.
I leave you with that thought.
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scruffy
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Post by scruffy on Aug 2, 2006 11:04:59 GMT 11
When she thinks of Rushton in Farseekers and Ashling, it's mainly with fear. Yeessss.... But what is the cause of the fear? In Farseekers, Elspeth is little more than a girl, really. Rushton is a man, and he's looking at her with those intense, dark eyes filled with something that Elspeth doesn't really understand but finds vaguely unsettling. I think what she's frightened by is the intensity of the feelings that rushton has for her. I think she's aware of Rushton's love for her and she's too young (in Farseekers at least) to deal with that kind of intensity. The fear, I see as being from various (confusing) sources: she's too young for really intense emotions; she's afraid of loving someone in case they leave or break her heart; she'd just killed someone.... She was afraid that if she let Rushton into her mind/heart he'd find out about her dark little secrets. Actually, I think that's a big about Elspeth - she's very frightened of her Dark Little Secret... She's terrified that someone will find out, which is a big part of her resistance to a romantic liason with anyone. That's a really good point... So seeing Freya and Rushton together SHOULD have made her happy... She was "off the hook", really. But it didn't - it made her really unhappy. Doesn't that suggest then that deep down, she knew that she really loved Rushton? Kind of a "I don't want him, but I don't want anyone else to have him?" I admit that I do love the way she carries his letter arond with her. I'm not trying to deny that she and Dames are very close, but I think it's a very telling fact that in Farseekers and in Ashling, when she's seperated from both Dames and Rushton (and they are both safe and sound), it's RUSHTON she can't stop thinking about... (and it's Rushton she thinks of when Swallow kisses her) *frowns* You know, it strikes me that Rushton and Dameon are really almost the same character.... It's almost like they *should* be one character, and yet IC split it into 2 characters - one got all the "negative" aspects, and the other all the positives. We know that Dames must have faults (because it's a human, not a God) and we know that Rushton must have kind, loving sides to him (because really, everyone in Obernewtyn does love Rushton. Also, he's not Ariel). And both of them don't really feature in "the story"... I've often commented that Rushton seems to exist outside the books - his interactions with Elspeth happen largely off screen, inbetween books. The truth is, except for the book, nearly all of Elspeths interactions with Dames do too - he doesn't go on her journeys, and for most of TKP he's absent... It parrallels so closely with Rushton... Undoubtedly. Gosh, I would have fallen apart! The thing is, (and please correct me if I am wrong), it seems that you're arguing that the only reason Elspeth is with Rushton is because of a series of circumstances happened to favour Rushton, and if Dames had happened to be the right place/wrong place then she'd be with him. But isn't that life? You fall in love with someone because they are at the right place at the right time... If they hadn't been there right when you were ready for a relationahip (if they'd been too early or too late) then you might never have fallen in love with them... Likewise, if someone else had stepped up at that point, it might have been them that you loved... It weighs on my mind every time Mr Scruffy leaves. You are right, you don't like thinking about it, but it does whisper at the back of your mind. And yes, the best way to deal with it is as you say to make sure that there's no conflict at the point of farewell. And maybe that is partly why Elspeth thinks about Rushton so much. On the other hand, if she really loved Dameon then I would have expected him to be more prominent in her musings. Yeah, he does. Rushton does behave like a petulent child at times... On the other hand, Rushton also sticks to his guns. He says "I think this is a bad idea", he puts it to a vote, and people vote against him. He goes along with the decision, but it doesn't stop him from thinking it's a bad idea. And he's honest with Elspeth about that. I guess you are right - it's not a very supportive attitude... But Elf keeps pushing Rushton away - she's done it since the first book. If nothing else she has systematically told Rushton "I don't need your support", even though we know she does. Very true. And Rushton made so many attempts to try and be supportive for Elspeth, especially at the end of Obernewtyn, but she just kept on rebuffing him. The same again during Farseekers. Elf made it very clear she DIDN'T want support - she thought she had to do it all on her own... She thought that was the point of her quest. It's really not until the end of Ashling that she realises it's okay to need support. It's not a weakness, but a strength. That being emotional is good - that's what the battlegames taught Elf. It was only after that realisation that she was strong enough in herself to accept Rushton's unconditional offer of love and support, even after all the times she'd snubbed him and been cold and horrid to him. That is what the ravek was all about. I think Rushton knows very clearly that Dames loves her. He says as much at the end of Ashling. The thing is jealousy is natural, and it's not an evil emotion. (I think Rushton must be a scorpio, by the way) I think Elf will feel that Dameon has been using his Talent to lie to her. I think she'll feel betrayed. Elf's not always the must rational of creatures, and I think she'll look back over their friendship and see every moment of their time together as a lie. She'll see ulterior motives in everything. When I said "open", I think I really meant Elspeth had never rebuffed or punished Dameon for being supportive of her, because she never suspected that he loved her. If she had known, she'd have probably treated him the same way she treated Rushton. It's easy to be in love with someone who lets you be in love with them. Elspeth doesn't realise it, but she lets Dameon love her because she doesn't know about it... She knows Rushton loves her, because unlike Dameon, he can't hide it. She punishes him constantly for attempting to love her, and yet he still does. Now some people might say that's just plane stupid behavior on the part of Rushton, but I think it shows that Rushton understands a little of where Elspeth comes from. See to me, this implies that Elf is just willing to "settle" for something, without even attempting to see if she can have what she wants. I don't think Elf is like that - she analyses and thinks and assesses everything ad nauseum until eventually she reaches a conclusion. I think that if she had any kind of romantic notion towards Dameon, she would have contemplated it before that point... Even if it was only in the Earthtemple, where she opened her eyes and Dameon touched her cheek... It's so powerful... But she meets Dameon & Kella coming out of the Earthtemple... And rather than feeling a rush of love for Dameon, she feels herself pulling away... she says something like "a great gulf had opened between them" (forgive, I don't have my books with me!). She doesn't want to be close to Dameon at that moment - all wants to do is find Rushton.... |
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Post by scruffy on Aug 2, 2006 11:48:08 GMT 11
*quakes* (I kind of feel I've just been called up to see the principal  ) Of course she misses him, Dames is her best friend (apart from Maruman). And I agree, you can't really say her seperation from Dames and Rushton and Matty are equivalent, because as you rightly point out, they are different people, with different circumstances and very different places in her heart. But I think you can compare them (well, actually, you can. Technically, you can compare anything, the question is "is the the comparison rational?"). You made the point that she only seems to miss Rushton when she remembers to... One of Elf's characteristics is that she tends to lose herself in projects in order to forget about the things that trouble her... I think that to some extent she indulges herself in missing Dameon to stop herself from remembering to miss Rushton. At the begining of TKP, she misses Rushton in passing - he's gone for a time, but she knows he will return soon. Dameon on the other hand has been gone for a very long while, and everyone around her is pining for him. However, as time progresses she comes to miss Rushton more and more, and become increasingly worried about what has happened to him. She *knows* that something has gone wrong. I think her "forgetting" to miss Rushton is a defence mechanism to protect herself from the anguish of the thought that something terrible had happened, something that gets harder and harder.  I think this is overly harsh, and I don't want this to degenerate into me defending all of Rushton's faults. As I have said, I think some of these things are the reaction to elspeth continually pushing him away and rebuffing him with every turn of his head. I think it's a very long bow to suggest he doesn't want her to have any independence. I think what he loves about her is her independence... That comes through time and time again. The thing is, Rushton can't possibly be this man you suggest he is - we know that because Elspeth talks about him in a completely different way. SHE doesn't see him like that, and neither do the rest of the Obernewtyners. They all love Rushton, they respect him and they beleive in him. If he was this character you suggest, then no one would feel they way they do about him. Dameon has spent such a great deal of time hiding his true feelings from Elf, I don't think you can say that... Elspeth doesn't know that Dameon loves her... to Elspeth, love is a deeply personal and rish emotion. i don't think she sees it as something that can be felt lightly... I don't think Elspeth really wants someone who will let her go. Which is exactly what Dameon HASN'T done. Indeed, the only person in this trio who has been honest about their feelings (painfully so) is Rushton. |
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Post by Dameon on Aug 2, 2006 13:39:38 GMT 11
Oh, Scruffy (and others) I'm enjoying this debate SO much. I think it says good things about our Fandom that we have our shipping debates intellectually. There's only so many times we can go "Rushton mean. Dameon good." "No Dameon good. Rushton better." before we all go nuts and beat each other to death with copies of TKP.
Now, for my rebuttals!  Don't fear, fellow debatees, for I promise not to hurt you.
*The Foot hovers threateningly over discussion*
I remind you again who Elspeth is most inclined to share her secret Quest with. Not Rushie-poo but Dames!
That's 'cos she's all lusty about Rushton, and not so much about Dameon. I think we can ALL agree that Elspeth is more attracted physically to Rushton than Dameon.
That's an interesting theory! Maybe in the end, she'll need the love of them BOTH in order to achieve her goals. It's also interesting that pre-publication blurbs for TKP talk about DAMEON being kidnapped. Now that would have been interesting, as you and Min have been discussing. It kind of suggests that when it came to kidnap, IC saw the two as fairly interchangeable!
Exactly. But that doesn't get you and Rushton off the hook, I'm afraid. After all, we're arguing that (among other things, and occasional accidental agreement) one man or the other is BETTER for Elspeth. So, it doesn't matter which man happened to be in the right place at the right time with right degree of assertiveness. What matters is which man would have been BETTER. And I still say that's Damo.
How does that excuse his behaviour? He doesn't try to stop Elf from going away in Farseekers because he thinks it's a bad idea. He tries to stop it (and pulls out all the stops) because he doesn't want her to. He even suggests himself as an alternative. Now, tell me that is because he thinks risking himself is the right thing for Obernewtyn. I don't think so!
First of all, I cannot wait to see the Elf/Dameon realisation moment! That's going to rock! Secondly, no jealousy is NOT an evil emotion. But the way Rushton expresses it IS an evil. Do you believe Dameon is not jealous of Rushton? Of course he is. That's why he stays in Sador. But he behaves nobly, even though, given Rushton got the girl, he has infintely more cause for jealousy!
Rushton, on the other hand is snippy and mean towards Dameon (and Elf, I might add) because he knows how Dameon feels and is worried about his rival.
It's not the jealousy that's wrong, it's the way it's handled by the respective lovers.
I don't nec. agree with Min's "right place right time" theory, but I'd like to point out that Elf and Dameon could hardly have a big romantic moment with Kella right there.
And Kella ships Elf/Rushton. She almost said so in Farseekers, when she sees Elf looking pretty in the Druid camp.
And that was a pointless aside. Just sayin'.
Of course she knows something has gone wrong. Because he's not back when he should have been. Dameon, however, doesn't come back and sends a messenger to explain why and is clearly fine. She's worried about Rushton because yes, she KNOWS something is wrong. She's missing Dameon, but of course she's not worried, because he's in Sador, all peachy fine. You can't describe Elf's fear about Rushton in the same terms as her missing him, because they're two seperate emotions. The missing him is about his not being there. The fear is about guessing something's wrong.
When?
He doesn't want her to go to the Lowlands in Farseekers. He does want her to go to the lowlands in Ashling, because otherwise she'll die. And he gets tetchy about it even then! When has he shown that he loves her independence? I agree and appreciate many of your arguments, but that's one I have to dispute utterly.
Well I can't help it if they're blinded to his flaws, now can I?
I suppose Rushton's possessiveness isn't a problem to the people of Obernewtyn. It's not directed at them. Elspeth, as we've seen, finds it irritating. The only reason she doesn't hate him for it, the way Min and I do, is because she doesn't know about the Dameon factor. Imagine Elf knows about Dameon being in love with her. Do you think she'll take kindly to Rushton being rude and snippy with him? I don't, and if I were Elspeth I wouldn't either.
Now, to quote you quoting me.
I note you only took the first part of what I said. Do you have a rebuttal to the fact that Elspeth considers sharing her burden with Dameon: something she never even considers with Rushton?
We're talking about who Elf really loves the most deeply, and that she will share something with Dameon that she won't with Rushton says a lot to me.
Top debate, anyway! Jolly good fun!
*The Foot stamps down*
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scruffy
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Post by scruffy on Aug 2, 2006 17:51:17 GMT 11
*carefully lifts Kayts foot off the discussion* I remind you again who Elspeth is most inclined to share her secret Quest with. Not Rushie-poo but Dames! I'm just going to jumble you around here for a sec, kayt... I did actually mean to deal with this before, but i think it got lost somewhere from my brain to my fingertips. We'll try again. I guess the way I look at it is that Elspeth loves Rushton too much to tell him about the quest. He has so much else to burden him - Obernewtyn and the fate of all the Misfits... She doesn't think he needs to know about her role in the grand scheme of things. He doesn't need that added burden. She doesn't contemplate telling him because she love him too much to put him through that, not because she doesn't feel like she can trust him... I don't think you can really seperate the two - whenever I have been in love, I have been physically attaracted to the guy, even if I didn't think him "cute"... I think if you really love someone in the "i am deeply committed to you" way, you find that person physically attractive. I think it's all part of the package, and the fact that Elf DOESN'T find Dames physically attractive is more evidence that she doesn't really love him. Really? i didn't know that (although it does sound very vaguely familiar). It does kinds of fit though with the idea that Rushton and Dameon are the two halves of the whole... So yeah... Maybe they both have a significant role in conclusion (which means neither of them can be the destroyer ) It doesn't excuse it, but I think it explains. He doesn't want to risk her... because he loves her, he values her almost above everything else. And yes, I think that compromises him as a leader at times, but I don't think that means his not right for Elf. I think that deep down he knows that she has a destiny outside his control, and he's terrified of losing her... The thing is that Elspeth really needs someone who challenges her... Dameon is gentle and kind and loving, but he doesn't challenge Elf. He doesn't make her want to better herself. Elf wants a foil - and that's want Rushton is. I agree that Rushton doesn't handle jealousy as well as Dameon... BUT, to his credit he does decide to let Elspeth go after the battlegames (it's not gracious, but it happens...). The thing about this is that simply saying that one of them is a better person than the other doesn't really justify them being better for Elspeth. Elspeth is not their puppet, and I don't think you can underestimate the fact that even though Rushton acted like a jerk, she still loves him. I'm going to have to think about this... I think in my mind missing and fear are very closely linked up, and that might just be my own personal weirdness creeping in... Journeys south are frought with danger, and I think that every time some of their number leave, those left behind both fear for those gone, and miss them... So I think they are pretty closely linked, at least in the context of the journey South... in the ravek chapter, at the end of Ashling, Rushton and Elspeth are initially discussing the loss of the Battlegames and ultimately end pledging their love for each other. During that discussion, makes several comments that indicate to me that he loves her independence, but is ... wary of it, because he feels that there is no room for him in her life because of it... I think he loves Elspeth for challenging him as much as he challenges her. So... you are saying that the only reason Elf loves Rushton is because she doesn't know that Dameon loves her? Because if she knew that, she'd suddenly hate Rushton? I don't think that's a very far assessment of Elf's capacity to love. It portrays her as very fickle. Elspeth is very aware of Rushton's flaws, and she loves him still. She's loved him since the begining (bless the pig). If you really love someone, finding out that a 3rd party loves you doesn't suddenly change how you feel about your lover... Love's not like that... Edited: just tidying up my shocking use of tags... |
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Post by Dameon on Aug 2, 2006 18:56:55 GMT 11
Will deal with the rest later, but no, that's not what I was saying. I'm saying that Elspeth is not that offended by Rushton's protectiveness, which sometimes takes a nasty form. And the reason for that is because she doesn't realise that there is another person (Dameon) to potentially be offended by it. If she knew Rushton was hurting Dameon by what he was saying, she would not be so quick to dismiss his rudeness.
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Post by Min on Aug 2, 2006 20:56:54 GMT 11
Wheeee, here we go again! You guys have been *busy* today!  I guess the way I look at it is that Elspeth loves Rushton too much to tell him about the quest. He has so much else to burden him - Obernewtyn and the fate of all the Misfits... She doesn't think he needs to know about her role in the grand scheme of things. He doesn't need that added burden. She doesn't contemplate telling him because she love him too much to put him through that, not because she doesn't feel like she can trust him... I don't think so...Dameon has the weight of the world on his shoulders, too, and Elspeth knows it. Everyone calls Dameon "Rushton's conscience". To me, that says that Rushton ultimately discusses and passes his concerns onto Dameon. Yet, for some reason, and despite this, Elspeth thinks that Dameon's shoulders would be broad enough to take on the knowledge of her quest I think it comes down to how both of them would react if she told them. Dameon would do everything in his power to help her, and keep it a total secret. Rushton would freak out, and then probably not include her in guildmerge expeditions, muttering "but you'll probably not even *be* here, will you?" I think that all Kayt meant (correct me if I'm wrong) is that in the Obernewtyn Modelling Academy, Rushton would win the beauty contest. C'mon, he is very pretty He's classically more handsome than Dameon, or so we are lead to believe. It doesn't mean that Dameon's not attractive, though. See, this is one of the main things that gets me angry about Rushton. Yes, you can fear that you'll lose the person you love to an accident, but you'll never really live or enjoy the relationship if you do, you're tying the person down when all they want to do is experience life. And life involves Danger. I think it's a subconsious thing, driven by Rushton's own fear of losing Elf, but honestly, it's not healthy. You see it time and time again in relationships - if one person tries to hold the other back, they fight it, and ultimately (if push comes to shove) the relationship will end because of it. That's one of the main reasons I see Dameon being better for Elspeth. He lets her experience life the way she would chose it. Dameon doesn't simply indulge Elspeth's notions, though. He pulls her up if he thinks she's wrong (eg, Obernewtyn when Elspeth says Dameon should lead them if they escape). But he allows her to make her own mistakes/decisions. This chapter is fresh in my mind, because I was quoting from it yesterday He doesn't love her independence - I didn't get that. I got from it that Rushton feels he's not worthy of her, simply because of a lack of Talent. That she won't let him near him because of this simple fact. I didn't get anything about her independence (or his) from it... No no no, completely the opposite, it's not fickle at all! Don't get us wrong. Elspeth isn't even slightly aware that she has Dameon's heart under her foot (hehe...ravek). Just that if she was aware, she will ultimately have to weigh up everything and choose. At the moment, dhe's got no idea that she's got the choice, because (as we've been shown the whole series) Elspeth can't see what's plain in front of her face until it hits her. I agree. But - she still has to make a choice. The fact of the matter is, even if Elspeth does know about Dameon's love, and does choose Rushton, she will not loose Dameon. He'll never give up on her, he'll never give up their friendship like that. If Elspeth and Rushton don't have a relationship, what do they have? It's certainly not a friendship, not from what we've seen. |
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Post by Fuil Dearg on Aug 3, 2006 13:00:57 GMT 11
I don't think you can really seperate the two - whenever I have been in love, I have been physically attaracted to the guy, even if I didn't think him "cute"... I think if you really love someone in the "i am deeply committed to you" way, you find that person physically attractive. I think it's all part of the package, and the fact that Elf DOESN'T find Dames physically attractive is more evidence that she doesn't really love him. i don't agree. there are some people who are in love with their paertner and are bothered and frustrated that they dont fins them attracted even though, in many cases, they once did. but they are still in love with them. i also think that Dameom would be in love with Elspeth even if she wasn't attractive. (i imagine her to be attractive.) He doesn't want to risk her... because he loves her, he values her almost above everything else. And yes, I think that compromises him as a leader at times, but I don't think that means his not right for Elf. I think he compromised himself as a leader and definately as an ally in the first book when he helped her to hide. The bit where they meet for the first time and he says, "I risk more than my own life in helping you" or something like that, I havent read the quote in years and don't remember it. It's the same bit where he says, "You have no idea how ironice it would be if you betrayed me now." I think he was in love with her from that first meeting and that's why he risked so much to protect her. I think that when he said that she "had no idea how ironic it would be" if she betrayed him then was that it would be ironic because he risked so much to protect her when he didn't need to except to protect her and because he was in love with her. The thing is that Elspeth really needs someone who challenges her... Dameon is gentle and kind and loving, but he doesn't challenge Elf. He doesn't make her want to better herself. Elf wants a foil - and that's want Rushton is. I don't see that Elspeth has any need to be challenged taht is not already being fulfilled in her life. The quest is plenty enough challenge in itself. She has plenty of challenging interactions in relationships because she is so loving and because she has the responsibilities and duties of guildmistress. Some of those duties she has because she has chosen them because of how she cares about others at Obernewtyn, even those she does not know well. She has had plenty enough hardships and challenges in her life taht required her to be assertive and strong. She doesnt need anyone to challenge her. She challenges herself and she has many challenges in her life. Rushton is jealous sometimes but he is also very loving. In the first book he cared about and loved Selmar (or maybe it was Cameo). I doubt this had anything to do with physical attraction or romantic love. He loved her and cared about her. His love for her didn't just stop or die just because she could no longer be expressive with him because of what happened her. Rushton is often cold but when he loves someone he is loving toward them. |
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Post by Dameon on Aug 3, 2006 13:28:31 GMT 11
That is a good point about Selmar, Fuil. I think you're right and his relationship with Selmar does show a side to Rushton that I tend to overlook.
I personally don't like him, and would find him overbearing and clingy, were he my partner, but I retract any implication that there is no good in him at all. I simply believe that he behaves unfeelingly and unforgiveably towards Dameon, and is less appropriate for Elspeth as a partner than Dames.
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scruffy
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Post by scruffy on Aug 3, 2006 14:57:28 GMT 11
I'm saying that Elspeth is not that offended by Rushton's protectiveness, which sometimes takes a nasty form. And the reason for that is because she doesn't realise that there is another person (Dameon) to potentially be offended by it. If she knew Rushton was hurting Dameon by what he was saying, she would not be so quick to dismiss his rudeness.*mulls* *muses* I don't know... Rushton is rude to Dameon several times in Elspeth's presence. Presumably, Elspeth must think Dameon is hurt by Rushton's attitude to him because Rushton and Dameon are such good friends... When Rushton walks in on Dameon and Elspeth chatting and is all snarly about them being together, Elspeth is surprised because Dameon and Rushton are so close and Rushton usually thinks so highly of Dameon. She is upset by the thought that Rushton is trying to hurt Dameon, and she doesn't understand why he's doing that. Y'know, it's funny that a group of people who are all gifted with the ability to "hyper" communicate (communicate on levels we can't), a heck of a lot of miscommunication and lack of communication goes on... Min made the comment that Rushton is described as being a bit of hunk. Which made me very happy, because I've tried to bring this up a few times, and I could never really work in before now... Anyway. It's very significant that we see this story unfurling from Elspeth's perspective. She likes the mountains, so we like the mountains. She is frightened, we are frightened. She misses Matty, we miss Matty. We also know that Elspeth doesn't see or hear anything, and sometimes she's a little slow, so we get the hint that there is a lot of stuff going on that Elspeth just doesn't know about, hasn't put together or even aware of. Nonetheless, Elf's perspective is very powerful. I think it's very, very relevant that from the very begining IC has made a point of highlighting that Elf thinks Rushton is a spunk, and subtlely demonstrating the strength of the attachment between the two. She's as good as telling us that from Elf's perspective, Rushton is the right man for her... The concept of the "right one" has as much to do with the person who's picking as the person being picked... You might think that Dames is a better choice for Elf all you like, but if she has decided that Rushton is right for her, then that is a pretty big tip of the hat towards Rushton being right for her. I believe, that at an unconscious level, Elf has decided to ignore Dameon's patently obvious attraction to her, because she doesn't think he's right for her. Rather, she's chosen to acknowledge the affections of probably the less likely man. Why? I belive it's because Ruhston has the courage to be honest about his feelings, because she is challenged to be a better person by Rushton, because he wants to protect her and maybe it's more subtle. Maybe, deep down, she understands that Rushton needs her more than Dames does. Wheeee, here we go again! You guys have been *busy* today! Or rather, practising the fine art of procrastination...  That's a good point. I guess that's part of Dameon's charm though - people feel they can tell him anything, and he does have that wonderful way of wrapping poeple up in mental hugs. that's a good point. Rushton will probably feel terribly betrayed when/if he finds out about her Quest, and elf is probably very fearful of that. In that case, I don't think it's fear of grumpyRushton, but the thought of hurting him that upsets her. I think Elspeth's conflict though is that she doesn't feel she CAN live as she wants too... I think she really wants to settle down with Rush and being happily bonded staying up in the mountains with horses and the misfits and Obernewtyn raise lots of little Elf's and Rushies. I think that's what she really wants. Her conflict is that she can't... Her destiny lies away from that. Rushton recognises that Elspeth wants the same things as him (the quite life with the family in the mountains), and he doesn't understand why she won't let herself have that. THAT's the conflict in their relationship. ;D I know, I read your comment the other day and reread that chapter as well... It's probably my favourite part of Ashling.... I interpret it slightly differenty (obviously). I see that Rushton sees Talent as a type of independence. A freedom he can never experience. They talk about how life in the Land will be after the rebellion, and being tolerant of unTalents. I think for Rushton, Elf independence is tied up in her Talent - he associates her strength of mind and her free will as by products of her Talent... Almost as though she couldn't imagine relying on anyone because she has what she needs within her own mind. The truth is that Elf's independence and strength are the by product of introspection and lonliness - for so long she though she was the only Misfit in the Land. What has made Rushton so upset is that Elf has kept herself seperate from the other Misfits, partly because of her quest, and partly because years in the orphanage taught her that was the safest way to exist. But it's also what he loves about her - she is "everything". Rushton doesn't think he's worthy, because he NEEDS Elspeth, he's not independent of her. All Rushton and Elspeth have ever had is love... They've loved each other from the begining. And if she changes her mind now, then they probably wouldn't have much left over... But then after years of being in love with someone, very few people maintain a close friendship with that person at the end of the affair. Just so, it's not a valid reason for choosing one over the other. If I could be convinced that Elf really *loved* Dames i would probably jump ship. I don't think Elf does love Dames though, not in a deep, rest of my life, committed, romantic love. She might fall in love with him, and I'm not adverse to that possibility. But right now, at the end of TKP, it's all about Rushton. They both believe in each other's love... (if this all sounds a little soppy, it's because my wedding waltz just popped up on my ipod, and it always makes me cry...) i don't agree. there are some people who are in love with their paertner and are bothered and frustrated that they dont fins them attracted even though, in many cases, they once did. but they are still in love with them. i also think that Dameom would be in love with Elspeth even if she wasn't attractive. (i imagine her to be attractive.) But my point is that it's very significant that Elf has NEVER found herself attracted to Dameon, not emotionally, physically or spiritually. An emtional or spiritual attraction can drive the deepest physical passion with no actual physical attraction... But Elf just doesn't see Dames like that... I think Rushton was referring more to the fact that if she betrayed him, she was also betraying all those who opposed Vega and Alexi... Remember Rushton had his little troop of misfits and they were all planning to overthrow Vega and Alexi with the help of the Druid. If Elspeth betrayed Rushton, she risked everything he stood for (things that she herself stood for). It's an interesting question though, why did he risk so much for her... I think initially he recognised her as a person in the same kind of danger that Selmar had been in, and he obviously cared so much about her. Maybe in his mind he displaced his grief for Selmar with love for Elspeth, and possibly that's why he's still so protective of her? Exactly -elspeth thrives with challenge. She doesn't actually enjoy "the easy life"... It's the idea of "you get back what you put in..." The harder the challenge, the stronger Elspeth becomes. She has plenty of challenges because she's chosen them - she could at any point to walk away from her quest, but she CHOOSES not to. Rushton is jealous sometimes but he is also very loving. In the first book he cared about and loved Selmar (or maybe it was Cameo). I doubt this had anything to do with physical attraction or romantic love. He loved her and cared about her. His love for her didn't just stop or die just because she could no longer be expressive with him because of what happened her. Rushton is often cold but when he loves someone he is loving toward them.[/quote] |
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Post by Min on Aug 3, 2006 15:28:27 GMT 11
I personally don't like him, and would find him overbearing and clingy, were he my partner, but I retract any implication that there is no good in him at all. I simply believe that he behaves unfeelingly and unforgiveably towards Dameon, and is less appropriate for Elspeth as a partner than Dames. I don't have much time now, but I wanted to quote this - because it's why we're on the Dameon ship in essence, isn't it? Because - personally - we on the Dameon ship would chose Dameon's character over Rushton's character in the real life world. Because we read from a 1st person angle, we are put in Elspeth's shoes. So, put in the scenario of picking between Dameon, or Rushton, who would you chose? Who could you see having a healthier relationship to settle down with? I *have* had partners like Rushton - clingy, sulky, overbearing, but complete spunks. Yes, I loved them, but in the end, it wears you down and there's no possibility of it continuing without you losing your identity. And I'm not friends with them anymore. Outside of a relationship, I had nothing with them. I see the similar pattern with Elspeht and Rushton, and I see Dameon over on the sidelines looking in sadly (IRL, I've been in Dameon's shoes too, so I really feel for him!!)...thinking "you silly girl, open your eyes!!" All our arguments and reasoning in life comes from personal experience, and because these characters are based on formula-copies of real people I believe them to be valid. We are all in Elspeth's shoes, and we'd all like her to pick the person who is right for *us*. The point of this long-ish post? Maybe we're ALL right Certainly, nothing that myself, Kayt or Miky say to Scruffy, Esspess, Elspethseeker, etc seems to have any sway on your opinions of Dameon being the one for Elspeth, and nothing you guys can say will convince me that Rushton is better for Elspeth than Dameon. So, I love this debate, it's been really interesting and we've all driven home our arguments really well, but can we please stop going around in circles? |
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scruffy
Gypsy
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Post by scruffy on Aug 3, 2006 16:52:00 GMT 11
 Wow... what an awesome way to have the final word in a discussion *impressed*
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Post by Dameon on Aug 3, 2006 17:42:30 GMT 11
But... I'm loving going around in circles. I don't ever expect to sway anyone over to the good ship Dameon (although, it'd be great). I was just thinking yesterday, as I finished up a rebuttal of Scruffy that other fandoms would look askance out our amicable but passionate discussion. By arguing and trying to justify our ships the intellectual way, sourcing, referencing, quoting and REASONING, we are actually gaining a much deeper understanding of our favourite books, and to some extent, of ourselves.
The point is not to win the debate. The point is to think, and what Scruffy, Esspess, Arien and Team are saying about Rushton is forcing me to THINK about my anti-Rushton prejudice and what the Dameon camp say (hopefully) is forcing them to think about their pro-Rushton bias.
And we have to describe it as anti-Rushton/pro-Rushton, because you'd have a hard time finding someone anti-Dameon!
Anyway, what I'm trying to say. basically, is that we ARE all right. But I'd much rather go round in circles, actually DEBATING Rushton or Dameon, actually justifying myself and rebutting others, and be challenged by the discussion, even if no one ever wins (and how can you win something that is a pure matter of opinion.) Anyway, the never-ending debate is preferable to me over a pointless shipping argument.
The more you argue with me, the happier I am. And this debate got fun when it BECAME a debate. The 80-odd pages of "Rushton" "Dameon!" "Rushton!" "DAMEON!" got old, after a while. I came back when there was intellectual discussion to be had.
So, by all means take me round in circles! It's obviously a meaty, contentious issue that could go on forever, and the fact that we can argue it so amicably and with such respect for each other speaks volumes for our fandom. There are few fandoms that could have this argument.
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scruffy
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Post by scruffy on Aug 3, 2006 18:41:59 GMT 11
I actually, I am really glad you said that Kayt, because I get a lot out of it too... I get so much more out of the books if I'm trying to understand their nuances. And yes, I think we do learn a lot about ourselves too, even if we have to go around and around in circles to do it. PS Rushton really is a hottie. |
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Post by Min on Aug 3, 2006 18:58:20 GMT 11
LOL I think I just got a little overwhelmed at work today, and came in here at the wrong time...I'll try keep up with the debate but it's happening so fast! I enjoy it as well, but I keep finding that I'm repeating myself a lot! And you're right, few fandoms could have this level of discussion! It's awesome! *lures people onto the good ship Dameon with chocca* Sorry for the digression *cough* please continue!! |
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scruffy
Gypsy
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Post by scruffy on Aug 3, 2006 19:03:15 GMT 11
*Ahem* ... That's my fault... I'm procrastinating at levels that I previously never thought possible...
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Emi267
Gypsy
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Post by Emi267 on Aug 3, 2006 19:03:23 GMT 11
Ahh... lovely long arguments for me to read.. 
Anyway, question: How many people here think that Elspeth's going to have to go off on her quest within a year or two after the end of TKP?
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Post by Dragon on Aug 3, 2006 23:04:04 GMT 11
Ok, I'm just going to slip in here and say something. I'm not an intellectual, can't debate and for the life of me cannot properly remember the books but..... Rumor is that......(avoid if don't want to know about storyline in the Sending) Rushton and Elspeth are Bonded Where does that leave Elf's feelings for Dameon and vice versa? *Throws spanner in works* |
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Post by Dameon on Aug 3, 2006 23:25:13 GMT 11
Rushton dies.
End of problem.
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Post by Min on Aug 3, 2006 23:38:20 GMT 11
LOL Kayt!!! It's not really a spanner in the works, though. Domick and Kella were once bonded. But it ended. A bonding doesn't mean you sign your life away. It doesn't mean that Elspeth won't change her feelings about people. *Ahem* ... That's my fault... I'm procrastinating at levels that I previously never thought possible... Hehehe, you and me both! It's been fun the last couple of days!! Don't be sorry ! |
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scruffy
Gypsy
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Post by scruffy on Aug 4, 2006 11:44:58 GMT 11
Rushton dies.
End of problem. And Dameon's the destroyer... It's not really a spanner in the works, though. Domick and Kella were once bonded. But it ended. A bonding doesn't mean you sign your life away. It doesn't mean that Elspeth won't change her feelings about people. I don't know.... I think Elspeth takes her committments really seriously... I think if she committed herself to Rushton in that manner, she wouldn't go back on her word, just because a "better offer" (so to speak) came along. I mean, think about her Quest - she committed to it, even though at times she'd rather just walk away and settle down and make babies with Rushton. I think that's one of her defining features, and it would need to be something quite earth-shattering for her to walk away from a committment. Edited: I hit enter too soon... |
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Post by Min on Aug 4, 2006 13:01:37 GMT 11
Well, I'd have thought the same true about Domick and Kella. They're both honourable people, driven by their committments, and we all *wanted* them to get together in Farseekers.
But they changed. And seperated. It happens *shrugs* and it's not impossible. The same could happen with Elspeth and Rushton.
Also, bonding's a bit different from marriage, if it's anything like the medieval "bondings". You swear an oath for a year, and renew it at the end of that year. I think you can either agree to renew it for another year (and just continue on year by year) or renew it forever.
Either way, at the end of that first year, either party can walk away, sign a life-long contract, or simply renew for another year if they haven't made up their minds yet.
I *think* that must have been how Domick and Kella got out of it, without creating a massive scandal. It must have been the end of their first year, when they parted.
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scruffy
Gypsy
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Post by scruffy on Aug 4, 2006 13:21:24 GMT 11
I don't know... I always just assumed that bonding was the same as marriage - it just seems odd that society (presumably a descendant of ours) would revert to pagan-style unions, considering that the rest of the society is so... ultra-conservative? (I think the Herders have always struck me as a kind of ultra-fanatical variant of Christianity - one true God/Lud, people created in his image... Have you ever read John Wyndham's "Chrysalids"? Awesome book, and OC has always reminded me of it).
Anyway, I guess it is possible that they have taken up a social construct similar to medieval pagan cultures, but I'm not sure that it fits. I always felt that Kella and Domick weren't actually "divorced" per se, rather they were just seperated. They are still bonded, just... not together. Does that make sense? (I think Domick still loves Kella, and I am certain Kella still loves Domick). I also got the impression that Domick and Kella were together for longer than one year. Didn't they bond at the end of Farseekers? And Kella moved out at the end of Ashling, didn't she? There's at least a year between Farseekers and Ashling, right? (Or are my dates all confuddled?)
I guess that it is entirely possible that Rushton and Elspeth COULD just fall apart. But, I think that like Kella, Elspeth would not just give up. It would be a very long time before she let herself let go of Rushton and fall in love with someone else... Especially considering how protective she is of her heart...
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Emi267
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Post by Emi267 on Aug 4, 2006 18:57:27 GMT 11
OK, I'm with Scruffy on the whole Domick/Kella and bondings bit. Ariadne - ssshhh! You're supposed to keep that little interview quiet!!! lol joking. I've known about that since before I read this thread, but I guess I must just love this thread way too much - I didn't really want to point it out. Anyway *hopes, even though the chances of this are pretty much 1,000,000,000,000:0* maybe IC was just trying to throw us off the trail. Maybe she was telling porkies? Or re-written it? I'm sorry, I just can't give up hope!!! It can't be true!! ;D Or we could just go with Rushton dying. Which, by the way, when you think about it is a hell of a lot more likely than Dameon being the destroyer. Although admittedly unlikely.  [glow=limegreen,2,300]Dameon Rules!![/glow] |
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Kella
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Post by Kella on Aug 18, 2006 17:57:52 GMT 11
All I'm gonna say is [glow=pink,2,300]GO RUSHTON, GO RUSHTON, GO, GO, GO RUSHTON [/glow] And how do you know if Rushton dies? Please don't make him die!  |
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Don't fear, fellow debatees, for I promise not to hurt you.
