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Post by Dragon on Jul 28, 2006 18:41:49 GMT 11
Sorry Min, i get your point.  I get the feeling that Dameon isn't right for Elf in the sence that.....*tries to find words*.....in my opinion, Elf is comfortable with Dames because he is more like a close friend or (dare i say it) brother. She can be with him as Elspeth, not Elspeth the girlfirend or Elspeth the all powerful woman with big journey!! Thats why i think Rushton is better for her so that he can winge and wine as much as he wants (not that i got that from the books but will read over them again) and Elf will still have (friend/brother figure and no more) Dameon to turn to and be herself. *chews lip hopeing words make sence*  |
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Post by Min on Jul 28, 2006 18:55:14 GMT 11
Hehe, no probs, I was just trying to dig in there that there's no point about discussing who the hottest is, because Matty's already won that arguement  hehehe. Thats why i think Rushton is better for her so that he can winge and wine as much as he wants (not that i got that from the books but will read over them again) and Elf will still have (friend/brother figure and no more) Dameon to turn to and be herself. But you see the sort of picture you're painting there? Elspeth relies on Dameon to be there for her in all matters, including Rushton. And being yourself? Aren't you supposed to be yourself in your relationship? My argument is that Elspeth is really in love with Dameon, if you hadn't gathered from the previous few pages |
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fearless-falcon
Gypsy
i stand in the rain so no-one can see i'm crying.... i walk the dark road with elspeth
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Post by fearless-falcon on Jul 28, 2006 19:16:31 GMT 11
rushton must win he's the master it's like the pos 4 elf yunno get wit it!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Dragon on Jul 28, 2006 21:25:14 GMT 11
True Min, you are supposed to be yourself in a relationship. I just feel that becuase Elspeth has so many secrets she has to keep to herself its easier for her to be with Rushton because he is less likely to pick up on her 'emotional' state (unlike empath Dames) which is of benefit to her as she has no intention of sharing her secrets with anyone. Hmmmmm.....Me thinks I should stop posting here because i seem to be digging a hole for myself and Rushton  *Sneaks out of argument with white flag raised, gives one last mexican wave for Rushton and leaves*  |
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Post by Min on Jul 28, 2006 22:04:20 GMT 11
But Dameon keeps his shield up around Elf all the time...for obvious reasons. But Elspeth *knows* Dameon keeps his shield up, too. So she's aware that he's trying to not let their emotions oversly effect their judgement. LOL you're not digging any holes, I've just had lots of practise at defending Dameon !! |
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Post by Dragon on Jul 28, 2006 23:28:20 GMT 11
*slips back in with flag now attatched to shovel* Ok, my ultimate argument for Rush V Dames is as follows: Dameon is not right for Elf purely because she has not acted on any feelings she (may) have for Dames (do we know if she has feelings for him or is that speculation?) and if she ever does it will probably be after he sacrifices himself proving his lover for her. That does not benefit her and indecision/hesitation (unless i'm mistaken...gees i dont recall much about these books) does not seem to be a trait Elf displays often. (caution yes....very fine line between those word's meanings) *looks for hole....unsure if rushton is waving from within one in the distance....decides its time to leave again, takes shovel with*  |
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Post by esspess on Jul 29, 2006 20:13:37 GMT 11
*sighs* MIn you're a feisty one arent you you really dig into poor rushton, i mean sure hes not perfect, but he isnt the worst guy in the world (imaginary or real), you gotta cut the guy just a little bit of slack... im not gonna let you get away with putting him down, just because none of us rushton supporters can get you back with anything mean about dames this thread is about who is better for elf, so once we have established that rushton is far from perfect there is no need to keep ranting on about how crappy he is, stick to dames' case instead of trying to bring rushton down...i mean if we (rushton supporters) arent allowed to talk about all the wonderful good aspects of rushton without being accused of supporting him just because he's hot, then i think its fair to say you dames supporters should stop bashing him so we dont have to keep defending him, and can then get on with the topic at hand ;D i mean you dont hear us saying horrible stuff about dames (even though there is none  ) lol anyway enough of that... ariadne im not sure i agree fully with what you said about elf not showing indecision/hesitation often, to me it seems she shows it quite often, i mean she is always unsure about her quest and whether what she is doing is right for obernewtyn and its inhabitants, or whether guildmerge will approve such and such, and indeed she was extremely confused throughout all the books, leading to her relationship with rushton, about what she felt for him, she felt a connection with him but she didnt really know him so was confused about whether she liked him or not, she was confused about his first glance at her, he was interested but because he tried to hide what he felt for her so much it appeared to her that he didnt like her, she was confused which led to her suspision about him being part of alexi's plans etc. she was very confused about whether she liked him later in the first book too, when she was hurt (after zeb machine) she wanted to see him and was annoyed that she hadnt been awake to see him when he was there visiting, then when he came to visit she didnt want him to be alone with her anymore...there are so many incidences of her being confused it actually feels like she is continually confused to me (just a bit of an exaggeration), which is why i dont think she isnt ever, or hardly ever, indecisive or hesitative. if you need more convincing...when they found matthew and he was about to be taken on board the slave ship, she rode out on gahlta when she didnt know what to do, she just sat there 'hesitating' to do anything because she didnt know what to do but wanted to do something, she couldnt decide whether to risk it or not...and all the time looking for him she had to convince herself that she would find him but she had no idea..i think there are more than enough examples there... ....so that leads me to my point...the fact i am sure she doesnt like dameon in that way is because, for once, she seems to know exactly how she feels about dameon, he is her great friend but she has not once thought of him as anything more than a friend....in fact the more i think about this the more i am starting to feel that it would be completely out of character for elf to, in the sending, go 'OMG i think im in love with dameon...', its not in her character, if there is anything in her that she is slightly unsure about she deliberates, in herself, over it for ages, she picks and picks and picks till she can find out what it is...its the exact same trait in her that makes so many people exasperated at her and think that she must be a futureteller because she is always thinking about things incessantly. In short i thinks its really her lack of indecision which makes me believe strongly that she does not love dameon. therefore she can not love him that way already, and it would suck if IC just introduced that idea in the last book, it would be horrible if elf just decided she loved dames and ditched rushton, i would be disgusted and hate elf for being so flippant! and annoyed at IC for changing elfs personality. OMG i have just realised the reason why this whole time i have believed so strongly why elf does not love dameon, if she did we would have heard about it before now (we have seen evidence of dames liking elf but not vice versa) , and since we have not seen anything in elf that shows she might actually be in love with dames i am strongly opposed to the idea that they should end up being together, it would be out of character for elf and would ruin the books for me. before now i wasnt so opposed to elf ending with dames because i think he is a great guy, and i wouldnt have minded, but now i know i wont like it because it would be inconsistant of elfs character. ok i think i repeated myself enough on that point, but i really think i hit something there, but anyway i shall leave now, but i think this point is a little harder to refute, is it not Min?
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Post by Dameon on Jul 29, 2006 22:37:32 GMT 11
No.
Elf is not the brightest thing in the world, and how long did it take her to realise she was in love with Rushton? Yes, she was confused about him before that, but the realisation of love came upon her suddenly. The reason she was confused is because her relationship with Rushton has no friendship basis.
At the moment, Elspeth sees Dameon as a friend, but why would it be out of character for her realise she sees him as more than that? Yes, it wouldn't be very nice of her (however justified) to decide she loves Dameon and ditch Rushton. But is it out of character? And who's to say Elf being in love with Dameon would require "ditching" Rushton.
How do you know Rushton will still be alive?
For that matter, why can't she be in love with both? Why can't she have a long, agonising decision making process and realise she wants to be with Dameon? She has to do what's best for her.
And if that happens, lets see her choose Dameon over Rushton.
THEN you will truly see who's the better man.
Anyway, back to my point which is that it is not out of character for Elf to change her mind about Dameon. With Rushton, she was confused because she didn't know what she felt. She found out.
With Dameon she does know what she feels. But that feeling can change.
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Post by Arctic Firefox on Jul 30, 2006 4:46:05 GMT 11
Good post, Kayt! I still maintain that Rushton is an inept leader and everything ran far more smoothy in Obernewtyn while he was being tortured in Sutrium. ANYWAY. Sometimes I feel Elf's feelings for him are partially out of guilt. I'll have to look a few things up in the books to support this, but I'm thinking about the end of TKP in particular, when she basically asks him to go for a swim because she feels guilty about being so stand-offish in the past. The fact that she hasn't always welcomed Rushton's affections suggests Elf's not exactly sure where her heart lies. One of the key scenes for me is when Elspeth returns to the safe house in Ashling and finds Dameon watching over Dragon. The mutual instinct here is an embrace, and of course party-pooper Rushton has to come in and make a sneering remark. Such a charming man. While Elspeth may believe she loves Rushton, I'm inclined to think that this has more to do with her insecurities than anything else. She sees him as a leader, but in reality, she's a far stronger leader and will hopefully realise this in The Sending, which should also lead her to realise that her heart lies elsewhere. I suppose you could call Rushton a "high-maintenence boyfriend"; he has an inferiority complex, behaves erratically, is attention-seeking, and generally makes a nuisance out of himself at inconvenient times. Dameon is more likely to be able to help Elf heal those red patches in her aura (or whatever it was called), while I feel Rushton will only create more. And that's about as coherent as I can be at 3:30am.  |
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Post by esspess on Jul 30, 2006 13:56:26 GMT 11
but why do you all want elf to realise how good a leader she is...she isnt meant to be a leader...she is the seeker, the scout, the look-out...remember in the first book she made that little speech..along the lines of "some are meant to be leaders, some are meant to be followers and there are others who are meant to be lone scouts.." i dont know what the words are but thats what she was saying and she said she was the scout...it was like the truest thing she has ever said about herself, it was even before she knew she was the seeker, its something she has always known about herself, and i think its probably the most probable that in the final book she will end up being by herself, she probably wont even go back to Obernewtyn. im sticking to the frodo analogy!! ;D *sighs* oh well whatever choice elf makes out of the two im sure it will be right for her...that is if either of the two are still alive at the end, i think im starting to feel its more and more likely that they will both die saving her and professing their undying love to her ...Or somehow they could both end up being fed that spice weed stuff, and go crazy, then while in a crazed frame of mind both get into a fight over who loves elf more and kill each other, then elf will bawl her eyes out and be like "...gone, their both gone... i cant go back to obernewtyn now, i have nothing, nothing!!" , then she will live a lonesome pityful existance drifting here and there, and going slightly insane like maruman...and in this state her and maruman will become even closer than before, as they are both so twisted and damaged their minds will be One...And therefore ElspethInnle shall roam the Land, the Blacklands and the Dream trails with Maruman as her guide, best friends for the rest of their lives...which will be rather short as Maruman is on his last legs and Elf will get Blackland poisoning, and they will both lie down together and die...under the statue where they both first met in kinraide... ;D ;D ;D ;D then we would all cry and scream "WHY, WHY, WHYyyyy....!!!" while pulling our hair out in grief (unless you dont have hair, then youll have to find something else to do ) ;D ;D ;D ;D Mwahahahaha im soo mean... |
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Post by Dameon on Jul 30, 2006 14:09:39 GMT 11
You haven't answered my question, Esspess. Why would it be out of character for Elf to realise she loves Dameon?
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manu
Gypsy
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Post by manu on Jul 30, 2006 20:54:00 GMT 11
i'd just like to put in my word of support for RUSHTON, dameon is lovely, but just not rushton.
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Post by Dameon on Jul 30, 2006 23:10:13 GMT 11
Sorry, Manu. We're not accepting that argument anymore. If you think Rushton is better for Elf, you need to explain why.
Yes, Dameon is NOT Rushton. That's half his appeal!!!
Why exactly is Rushton the better man, in your opinion?
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Post by Min on Jul 31, 2006 16:48:37 GMT 11
*sighs* MIn you're a feisty one arent you you really dig into poor rushton, i mean sure hes not perfect, but he isnt the worst guy in the world (imaginary or real), you gotta cut the guy just a little bit of slack... im not gonna let you get away with putting him down, just because none of us rushton supporters can get you back with anything mean about dames this thread is about who is better for elf, so once we have established that rushton is far from perfect there is no need to keep ranting on about how crappy he is, stick to dames' case instead of trying to bring rushton down...i mean if we (rushton supporters) arent allowed to talk about all the wonderful good aspects of rushton without being accused of supporting him just because he's hot, then i think its fair to say you dames supporters should stop bashing him so we dont have to keep defending him, and can then get on with the topic at hand ;D i mean you dont hear us saying horrible stuff about dames (even though there is none ) lol anyway enough of that... ...ok i think i repeated myself enough on that point, but i really think i hit something there, but anyway i shall leave now, but i think this point is a little harder to refute, is it not Min? Oh ho ho! Look, I was getting up in arms because we had a couple of posts that were just "OMG lyk Rushton is sooooo hot!!" We're after lucid arguments here. Such as yours. The point is, I was cutting into Rushton, because it is relevant to the argument, and from the couple of "lyk soo hot" messages, I needed to re-establish that fact, so it was repeated. If he was supportive, and didn't sulk every time Elspeth made a decision, it'd be fine. But it's evident in the book he's not like that. Dameon is. Hence the relevance, let me know if you need more clarification on that. Kayt has already robutted your argument too, esspess, so I won't repeat her with the rest of it. AF - Welcome to the team  I like your idea of Elspeth's feelings being out of guilt. That's a new aspect I'd not thought of in favour of our argument. I don't know if she does feel guilt or not there, but I agree that she's standoffish at the end of TKP, and obviuosly, doesn't understand her feelings towards anyone. That is made evident. So there's definately something to that argument. |
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Post by Arien on Aug 1, 2006 0:32:07 GMT 11
On the guilt issue- there's always going to be that, I think, no matter whether Elspeth is with Dameon or Rushton. I think Miky mentioned last page that Elspeth will find out about Dameon's true feelings in The Sending. If she does find out, how can we judge her reaction? If she does say 'I love you too Dameon', will she be saying this truly, or will she be clouded by guilt? She wouldn't want to break his heart- he's probably her closest friend, and she would know how much it would hurt him, being an empath. She couldn't just reject his love. Would her mind feel that she had to love him, no matter what?
However- Elspeth's love for Rushton actually being guilt isn't justified. Just because she felt guilty about being stand-offish doesn't mean she decided to be in love with him to make him feel better and compensate. Personally, I feel a lot guiltier when I accidentally miss something/do something stupid which affects people I already care about, and I do as much as possible to make up for it.
Elspeth has that character- she's a stand-offish person, and the fact that she makes an effort to try and break this to hang out with Rushton makes me think that she really does care about him. She's naturally a bit of a loner, and I think she would rather avoid people, but she wants to make an effort to be with him.
I agree with what Min says though, that she doesn't completely understand her feelings yet. That's why I'm also sticking to the Frodo ending
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scruffy
Gypsy
hehehe... Sheepies... :)[x=drscruffy]
Posts: 249
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Post by scruffy on Aug 1, 2006 12:12:29 GMT 11
I have always been a devoted beleiver in Rushton (I may even name my first born after him ) Now, don't get me wrong, I adore, absolutely ADORE Dameon. I just don't think that he's right for Elspeth (or, that Elspeth is right for him, either): All thoughout Elspeth's life, she'd been torn from people she loves, somewhat violently. The result is that she's not very good at expressing (or allowing herself to experience) deep emotions like love - because every time she's loved someone, they have been taken from her. She holds it back, she denies it and she can be pretty cruel about it (think about her reaction to Matty prior to his kidnapping). So we have a strong powerful woman who is determined to be alone and to never be close to someone in case she (or they) gets hurt. The only person in the entire series who has the courage to stand up to her is Rushton. He's the only one who grabs her and shakes her by the shoulders and says "No! I am going to love you, and you aren't going to stop me!" Yes, sometimes he's moody and he can say horrible things, but honestly, who hasn't been driven to distraction by someone they love? I know I've said horrible things to my husband, and I know he's said horrible things to me. Thing is, you don't want a life partner who's going to hold you at arms length and tiptoe around on eggshells around you. You want a life partner who is honest with you - sometimes painfully so. Honest in their love for you, their expression of it, their expectations of you... and honest in their interpretations of your flaws. Rushton does all that. To be honest with you, not many people would have put with Elf's meanness at the end of TKP, but Rushton does. He accepts her appology and welcomes her into his arms. He understands that she's scared, and he puts up with it. To reference the movie As Good As It Gets, he makes her want to be a better person. Dameon, on the other hand, has hidden his love from her. He's indulged her fears and her weakness. He does love her, but not with as much passion as Rushton does. Now I'm not saying that "The One" is a matter of loving more or less, but it's about what you do with that love - Dames has done nothing with it but bottle it up. Rushton has embraced it. Finally, Elf herself. It's not enough that Dames loves her - she doesn't love him. She cares for him - he's her friend... Her last link with her childhood now that Matty has gone. He's incredibly special to her, and she has let him be closer to her than she lets anyone else. And despite all of this, she loves Rushton. Dames knows it, Rushton knows it and she knows it. Her anguish when she found Rushton in the cloisters wasn't for a friend - she had lost Matty not long before and hadn't felt that anguish. It was a deep, gut wrenching pain that you only feel when someone you trully love is hurt. Elf is disturbed by her feelings for Rushton, because everyone she has felt like this about is stolen from her. That doesn't makes them less powerful or real. Dames is her best friend, and she loves him for being her friend, no more. |
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Post by Min on Aug 1, 2006 14:57:23 GMT 11
Yay, good arguments! But - one thing. The only person in the entire series who has the courage to stand up to her is Rushton. He's the only one who grabs her and shakes her by the shoulders and says "No! I am going to love you, and you aren't going to stop me!" Urm, no. Rushton doesn't do this at all, I don't think. Think Ashling - he very plainly sulks. Elspeth is the one who makes the decision and the final move in the ravek chapter. Not Rushton. Dameon respects her decision, and respects her freedom...that's love. Loving someone so much that you can let them go to someone else because you want them to live their own life and make their own choices, withour the influence of his Empathy (which would have made it obvious to her pretty quickly). Dameon wants Elspeth to love him for him, because he's a good person, not because he has talents. Rushton wants Elspeth to love him because...well, why? I can't answer that... |
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Post by Dameon on Aug 1, 2006 15:07:21 GMT 11
That's a pretty harsh comment, and one I'd like to see backed up, please.
What Min said. Being moody and b!tchy doesn't equal more passion. It equals, to me, a less mature love, a selfish love that makes him unwilling to let her do her own thing. Dameon doesn't "bottle-up" what he feels. He hides it from Elspeth out of respect for her and for Rushton, because he believes she loves someone else.
He loves her enough to do that, and to know that if she does love him, she'll come to him without him needing to pester her or behave badly, as Rushton does.
You can't say Dameon doesn't love as passionately. He just doesn't love as loudly.
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scruffy
Gypsy
hehehe... Sheepies... :)[x=drscruffy]
Posts: 249
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Post by scruffy on Aug 1, 2006 17:25:35 GMT 11
 Think Ashling - he very plainly sulks. Elspeth is the one who makes the decision and the final move in the ravek chapter. Not Rushton. I think Rushton had made it very clear that he loved Elspeth prior to that point. He didn't want to force himself on her - he had to be sure that it was what she wanted, so naturally the "final move" had to come from Elf. Rushton's not about to force himself on her! Rushton had decided to stand aside and let Elf go, if that was what she wanted. Ultimately, the choice was her's. I can't dispute this point, because I agree with it completely. Dameon does love her, and if he had used his Talent on her, well, he wouldn't ever use his Talent like that. That's just not who he is. My position is that Dameon is not the right person for Elf (and also that Elf is not right for Dameon). You point out that Dameon's love for Elspeth is the greater (and therefore more deserving???) because he can let her go. My point out that Elspeth doesn't need another person in her life who can let her go - Elf needs more than anything someone who refuses to let her go, because up until now its been the pattern of the people she loves - even Maruman leaves and stays as he wishes... Rushton has made no secret of loving her, ever. For me though, the clincher in the coffin for Elspeth-Dames is in the Rushton-napping. She loved Rushton, and like everyone else she had dared to care about, he left. He was taken away. But to me, the ultimate reason Elf will never betray Rushton is that unlike everyone else she has loved, Rushton came back. I think that ultimately, the power of that for Elf is stronger than anything else. Rushton loves Elf, and he would like it if those feelings were returned. That's natural. Dames would like it if Elf loved him for the same reason - when you love someone, you want that person to love you back. Why does Rushton love Elf... now that's a more interesting question. Equally, why does Dames love her? Kayt.... I will reply to you soon, but I have only 4 minutes until I turn into a pumpkin, so it will have to wait until I change back... *Quiet Interlude* Okay I'm back from Pumpkin Land. That's a pretty harsh comment, and one I'd like to see backed up, please.
What Min said. Being moody and b!tchy doesn't equal more passion. It equals, to me, a less mature love, a selfish love that makes him unwilling to let her do her own thing. Dameon doesn't "bottle-up" what he feels. He hides it from Elspeth out of respect for her and for Rushton, because he believes she loves someone else.
He loves her enough to do that, and to know that if she does love him, she'll come to him without him needing to pester her or behave badly, as Rushton does.
You can't say Dameon doesn't love as passionately. He just doesn't love as loudly. I agree - the depth of the water can't be read from how loudly the waves crash on the shore. I'm not denying that Dameon loves Elf - he does. But passion is violent - it's not a calm, rational or even peaceful experience. Anyone who has ever been passionately in love knows that you can't hide it, you can't sit quietly. It's gut-wrenching, stomach-churning, 2-in-the-morning-insomnia-driving... Depth of love is different. Deep love can last your whole life - it's the deep murmur that sits at the bottom of your heart and flickers everytime you hear a voice, smell a scent, see a silhouette that might remind you of that person... Even someone you haven't seen or thought of in years *sighs softly* *pauses* Where was I? A passionate love might be deep, but they don't mean the same thing. People often mistake that concept of deep love and true love, IMO. I think that for some people, true love MUST be felt passionately, but for others, it's felt deeply. And sometimes they go together (and sometimes they don't). It's that old rule that what's right for one person isn't right for another. Dameon loves Elf deeply, but not passionately. Rushton's love is passionate... Is it deep? I think so. I beleive that Elspeth is the kind of woman that needs a passionate love. Finally - I dispute the idea that Dameon hiding his love behind his Talent is something to behold as a noble idea. It's like lying to Elspeth - Dameon has arbitarily decided that it's better for Elsepth to not know the truth of how he feels for her. To me, it feels wrong... I guess that's Dames much-looked for fault. He doesn't credit Elspeth with being able to cope with the idea that he loves her, so he hides behind his Talent. Dameon has the luxury of being able to choose not to deal with it messy reality of these kinds of situations. Rushton never had that choice.... In summary, for me the Rushton/Dameon debate comes down to not "who is the nicer bloke", or "who loves Elf more" but "who does Elf love" and "who is RIGHT for Elf?" Elf loves Rushton - she loves him for being honest in his love for her, she loves him for challenging her and she loves him for coming back to her. That's not say she doesn't care for Dames, but I don't see either a depth of feeling or a passion towards Dames. Who's right for Elf? Someone with the courage to tell/show her they love her. Someone determined to get past her walls, her fears and her insecurity. Someone like Rushton. Edited: just to ad my reply to Kayt...
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Post by Min on Aug 1, 2006 18:52:09 GMT 11
I think Rushton had made it very clear that he loved Elspeth prior to that point. I disagree. We knew that Rushton loved her. But she thought he was in love with Freya. And he sulks, there's no getting around it. The whole of pages 514 and 515 of Ashling (Puffin 1996) is Rushton picking a fight and having a whinge. Things like; Sulking. No, I never said Dameon was more deserving of Elspeth's love, my arguments outlined in the last few pages of this thread is that Elspeth *really* loves Dameon, and that Dameon is more suited to her than Rushton. I'm always repeating myself on this thread, but here goes again; She relies on him. She collapses into his arms in relief more than once. We are very clearly shown that she loves him. With Rushton, we see arguments, tolerance, and a couple of romantic-ish scenes. Rushton has made great secret of loving her. We see it all through Ashling, especially. His dealings with Freya prove how secretive he was about it. I like that sentence. But I don't think it points to Rushton. She knows she has to go, she has a mission in life greater than anything else. Rushton sulks and growls whenever she has to go on a mission. What Elspeth needs is support. Someone who tells her she's doing the right thing. That's very evident in TKP when Dameon arrives in Sutrium. Elspeth loves Dameon. More than she can love Rushton. Because Dameon allows her to be herself - the imperfect girl with feelings so bottled up. But Elspeth has always had so much trouble in interpreting her feelings. So, why is she with Rushton? From Ashling: Honestly. That's asking for it. Think about what Elspeth has just been through previous to this chapter. She's been healing for a week, then given a whole heap of bombshells by the templeguardian about her task. She wants to live a little, and she sees a chance to do something for herself. I daresay that if it had been Dameon written into that chapter, she would have reacted the same way. I would guess that it's because he's seen all sides of her. I think I wrote something about why Dameon loves Elf a page or so back...re-read the old arguments if you're interested This is turning into such an interesting discussion! |
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Post by esspess on Aug 1, 2006 19:38:37 GMT 11
in answer to kayts question...i dont think it would be out of character for elf to realise she loves dameon...i think its out of character that she would realise that she loves dameon IF we dont see any evidence of her confusion about how she feels to him.
i dont know how to explain it, but she just seems to worry about things for such a long time before she realises how she feels about them, but she seems to know Exactly how she feels about dames...IF she Does fall in love with dames it will be something that bothers her for a long time, she wont just go oh i think i love dames...so thats why i think that if dames were to confess his love to her then she wont just turn around and go you know what i love you too. and i dont think there is anything that will make her fall in love with dames if she hasnt already, i know thats probably a weak argument, but i have to go now i cant explain it now my mum wants me off the comp cya...
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scruffy
Gypsy
hehehe... Sheepies... :)[x=drscruffy]
Posts: 249
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Post by scruffy on Aug 1, 2006 20:08:55 GMT 11
I disagree. We knew that Rushton loved her. But she thought he was in love with Freya. I enjoy trying to read Ashling and TKP from Rushton's perspective. I enjoy Rushton's character, because he remind me so much of myself... The way he reacts in Ashling... Well, Mr Scruffy's always telling me that I sulk when I don't get my way (which is true  )That doesn't mean I don't love him. I'm just selfish at times. We read these books from Elf's persepctive, which means that we see things from a really biased angle. Elf misread Rushton and Freya's interactions, and I think it's interesting to look at the lead up to that. Elf was expecting Rusthon to leave/betray her, because everyone else that she had ever loved had. She reacted with more violence than the situation really warranted, because she'd been building herself up to it. And yes, Rushton sulks - it's not nice, but it's human. On the other hand, Elspeth isn't very nice to him, either. I wasn't sure if that was what you were implying or not... I agree, she does love Dameon (I think she even says that a few times), but I interpret this as signs of their close friendship - not an indicator of "romantic" love. She doesn't fall apart when Dameon stays in Sador, and whilst she misses him, it's no more gut-wrenching for her than when Matthew left. Compare that to her feelings everytime she leaves Obernewtyn - she can't escape her thoughts of Rushton. It consumes her. I often wonder why IC shows so little of the Elspeth/Rushton relationship - so much of their interaction happens "off-screen" so to speak. It's a strange plot-device - to allude to something so significant to the main character, but never really explore it. You are right, WE only seem to get to see the 'angsty" Rushton - as Elspeth is sent away for yet another perilous journey south. The thing is, when someone you love is sent away for an indefinate period, with limited communication, you get a little grumpy. You don't want them to leave you. That's the side of Rushton we see... But we know that there must be a caring, gentle loving Rushton which we don't see, because Elf (and other characters) refer to it... If you are being truthful and honest with someone, can you really support them without knowing what they are doing? Rushton doesn't know about Elspeth's quest, so can he really be supportive of it? I love that scene where Dames appears in the doorway in Sutrium - I cry everytime I read it. He's like a ray of sunshine into her life in a really dark moment. But it's like turning on a torch in a blackout - the darkness hasn't gone away. If Dames took down his sheild, do you think it would be the same? Doesn't she feel relaxed around Dameon because she doesn't know about how Dameon feels? I think it's a false-paradise. You are right - she loves Dameon. Everyone loves him. But Rushton puts up with so much from her - she's so harsh on him, so mean and so cold at times. It's easy to love someone when they are open to you. But Elf's inherrant fear of losing people she loves (I mean a different kind of love here) means that Rushton has so much more to put up with. And he still loves her. And ultimately, he does want her to be herself - that's the woman he fell in love with. He's never asked her to change. He's asked her to be more respectful to him... but not change who she is... So... you think she was manipulated into it? Interesting... I think that she had had a "near death experience" and had finally realised that there was no point in putting things off any further. I think up until that point she'd been denying herself the possibility of loving Rushton, because she didn't know what would happen. But after the Battlegames, she realised, like everyone else, that their strength lies in their emotional capacity. Loving Rushton makes her more complete - it makes her stronger. It's an interesting question about whether the outcome would have been the same if it had been Dameon in that scene, not Rushton.... I don't think it would have been. I think this scene was built up in the crossing - when Elspeth sees Rushton and Freya on the boat. She was willing to beleive that Rushton was "betraying" her, because that's what people do to her - they leave. After the battlegames however... She's ready to take the chance. ;D ;D |
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Post by Min on Aug 1, 2006 20:33:44 GMT 11
Elf misread Rushton and Freya's interactions, and I think it's interesting to look at the lead up to that. Elf was expecting Rusthon to leave/betray her, because everyone else that she had ever loved had. She reacted with more violence than the situation really warranted, because she'd been building herself up to it. And yes, Rushton sulks - it's not nice, but it's human. On the other hand, Elspeth isn't very nice to him, either. Yeap, Elf misinterprets it. I bought it up to highlight the fact that Elspeth really wasn't aware that Rushton was interested in her romantically. When she thinks of Rushton in Farseekers and Ashling, it's mainly with fear. I don't think she'd been building herself up to having another person leaving her - I think she'd been expecting to leave him. That her life was not her own, so even if she did have feelings for anyone, there was no point in acting on them, because she'd have to leave. I think I mentioned a page or so ago how Elspeth carries Dameon's letter with her everywhere she goes in TKP. She likes to keep him close, even when he's far away. She doesn't feel the fear of losing him, or pain, like she did with Matthew, because Dameon's not gone. As far as she knows, he's acting in Obernewtyn's best interests. Now, if Dameon had been kidnapped in TKP...again, it would have been an entirely different story. Well...I know when either Paul or I go away, we don't sulk and pout about it. Can you imagine, as awful as it sounds and I really don't like to think of it, if something happened while the other was away? Your last impressions of the person you love would be of disharmony...an argument, a sulk, etc. We know the other will be coming back. Sometimes you have to do things seperately, that's all. So the point - Elspeth thinks about her and Rushton parting, because it wasn't harmonious. There was conflict. It would certainly bother me if I'd gone on a trip and left anyone I cared about on bad terms. Not talking about the quest. I'm talking about the missions that Elspeth's sent on in Obernewtyn's name, fully discussed and voted on at Guildmerge. Rushton seems to sulk that things didn't go his way. When something bad is going on, that you have no hope of fixing on your own, all you can do is support one another. It doesn't solve the problem, because the problem is bigger or more involved. But it helps you stay on track, knowing that someone has your back. I expect she'd be shocked, and Rushton would probably say something about knowing all along when/if she discussed it with him. I can't wait for the scene where she finds out. The reactions are going to be so important...I just...can't wait! The point is, why will knowing that Dameon is in love with her change anything? Sure, she'll be shocked. But don't they have the basis of a strong relationship already built? If you ask me, there's no point in being in a relationship if you're not open to one another, can rely on one another, and are very strong, deep friends with one another. Not manipulated. Just that the question came at the right time - when she was ready to attempt to do something for herself. Just as her love for Dameon, the secure love, knowing that he'll be there when she needs him, makes her stronger - we see it time and time again. I felt that she was more accepting her quest was her life. And after the battlegames, yes, she's ready to take a chance. I don't deny that she loves Rushton, I just think she loves Dameon more. If she'd met Dameon at that point in her life, instead of Rushton, when everyone was so emotionally overrun with her nearly dying and their losing the Battlegames but winning an ally (in Sador), Dameon would have let his shield down a little more. Gah, if only!! |
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Post by Arien on Aug 1, 2006 23:13:00 GMT 11
You are right - she loves Dameon. Everyone loves him.
I think it will change everything.. A guy you've trusted for ages, confided in and thought of as your friend, wanting to help you as your friend, confesses that he's been in love with you all along.
It's like being lied to- you thought you knew exactly how they felt and where you both stood, but you find out that you had absolutely no idea.
It will be awkward between Dameon and Elf once she finds out. She'll know he'd been witholding emotions from her- and that, in a way, is like lying for an empath.
Also- how long did it take for her to get her head around the idea of Rushton loving her? She was always a bit hesitant about those emotions. At least he sort of showed that interest from the beginning- they were never really "close friends". Dameon is a whole other story. She'll have to try an accept the fact that he had been in love with her all through that friendship. Having to deal with that thought and knowing Dameon feels so strongly about her will scare her. |
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Post by Min on Aug 2, 2006 9:23:29 GMT 11
I think this is an interesting point... It's true- everyone at Obernewtyn loves Dameon. The books always refer to how highly the empaths hold him, and how they love him. He is the one they all look up to. He's the guy that everyone around Obernewtyn talks to and opens up to. I know it's Elspeth, the unemotional one we're talking about, but as far as we know, how she acts around Dameon- going to him for advice and comfort, opening up to him- is exactly the same as how everyone else acts around him. Maybe she interacts with him even less compared to others. Well, there's one difference. It's the whole "original trio" thing. Matthew, Dameon, Elspeth (and Cameo) were the initial friends on the farm, thinking about escape, plotting, coming together when there was no one else to trust. I think the time in Obernewtyn formed bonds much stronger than any of the future books. So, Elspeth will always have a much, MUCH stronger bond with Matthew and Dameon, as they will with her. It's bad times like those, and who stands by you during them, that leave impressions on you. |
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hehehe.
)That doesn't mean I don't love him. I'm just selfish at times.