dames vs rushton

[Kaylan-R]

but who will be the leader? Elf is okay, but I dont think she would be a good master. It's too much for her, and besides, she has to leave Obernewtyn for her secret quest.

[Unykorn]

The way i see it, there's no real need to wonder who would be the new leader, because Rushton will rule Obernewtyn forever! Or until he and Elspeth have a child ... assuming that they live through her quest

[Kaylan-R]

its all about the quest!! agh i cant take it anymore!!

HURRY UP SENDING!!

[Siryn]

i dont think i could imagine elf with a child --even rushtons

[Kaylan-R]

me niether. her as a mum is unmaginable

[Siryn]

her owning a goldfish is unmaginable.

[Min]

LOL Siryn. Don't worry, she'll employ Ceirwan as a nanny.

I think they should vote for their leader/s. Not just take whoever claims ownership of the place. It wouldn't have to be one person - maybe it could be all the guildmasters/mistresses?

[Dameon]

The whole of Obernewtyn should make decisions together.

They can be an autonomous collective.

Leaves on the wind, and such.

[Emi267]

*cackles evilly* hehehe, I've just read the first 5 pages and the last 10 pages of this argument (oh come ON, you didn't REALLY think I would read all 87, did you? I can't wait to sink my teeth in to this...) and now it's MY TURN!!!! Muahahaha! OK:
It's come up a few times in this discussion, Matthew with Dragon, Matthew with Elspeth, Daffyd with Gilaine, ect. (especially somewhere in the first 5 pages, someone did a whole list.. hang on, I'll find it.. OK, got it... )

ksl said:

No way!
Elf and Dameon
Ceirwan and Freya
Matty and Dragon
Zarak and Aras
Dardelan and Bruna
Daffyd and Gilaine
KSL

Now, see some sense. MATTHEW AND GILAINE. There. Now no more 'Oh, no, it's not Dameon OR Rushton, it's Matthew!' *growls*. Now that we've got THAT straightened out, down to business.
Rushton is sane already, he just won't talk about his experience with the Herders *growls again, this time at Herders*. That DOESN'T mean he's insane. Now here we come to the real bit. By this point, I should like to think I have you all going, 'Come on, please, just tell us! Rushton or Dameon?'. Well I say this: DAMEON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why? elspeth needs him. Sure, there might be a bit of him needing her too, but there's nothing wrong with that. Why elspeth needs Dameon (Dameon peoples, not this 'Deamon' person, who sounds like a 'Demon'):
she needs to express herself - there is no way she can do that with Rushton. Even If she did tell him, he would ignore it. And it's been said before, I know, but I'll say it again - we don't want Elspeth's emotions being interpretted wrong, and something she didn't even mean blowing up in her face. I'm not saying that being an empath is an essential qualification for Elspeth's future bondmate, but whoever it is (*cough* Dameon *cough*) has to understand that people don't always mean exactly what they say. Like if she tried to say something deep and personal that could upset Rushton really easily if she said it the wrong way, and she did end up saying it the wrong way, then he'd go off at her even before she could say she didn't mean that. Whereas someone like Dameon, even without his empathic Talent, would be able to ask her 'OK, did you really mean it that way so it would hurt me, or did it just come out wrong?' and she'd be able to say 'No, I didn't, I meant something else.' and he could forgive her. Now if she had that kind of problem, being worried she'd say the wrong thing, she'd just never say it, wouldn't she? And even if there was dameon she could talk to it about, she wouldn't cos then she'd feel like she was betraying Rushton by trusting someone else over him, right? So she'd end up just bottling it up forever, wouldn't she? And I have a theory that goes with that, that emotions are ike pain. If you don't express your emotions, somehow, to someone, then your essentially suppressing them, like you can suppress pain. And one day, that's going to get to you, start to hurt, make you feel sick, drag you down. Which is why God gave us mouths, so we could talk about them, and ears, so we can hear people talk about them, and talk back to them, and help them. And why He gave us brains, so if we're deaf, or mute, we can get around that. Anyway, the point is, it wouldn't be good for Elspeth to not talk about her feelings. And it would get to her, and break her down, like a pain barrier might fall, and crumble. At best, she might have an emotional breakdown. At worst, it could quite literally kill her.
It has also been mentioned that Dameon always has a barrier up between them, and that could affect their relationship. Well I think the whole point to that barrier is that Dameon doesn't want to accidentally empathise his feelings towards her, as it has been suggested he might have done to Rushton. Therefore, it wouldn't really matter if they bonded, would it? and I thing that if they did bond, then obviously they would be very closely attached, being Talented and all. Remember how Elspeth said she had to concentrate really hard if she wanted to keep Maruman out of her mind? Because he'd always been there and he'd almost sort of melted into her shield? I reckon that's what would happen to any Talented couple, particularly where one of them is as strong as Elspeth, or both.
I think Dameon can teach Elspeth to express her emotions, which I think everyone agrees she needs. And he could be there when she needs him, and fade away when she needs to be alone, but always ready to come back at an instant's notice, no question's asked. Rushton would never be there when she needs him, but always in the way when she doesn't. Rushton would keep her like a caged bird any time she tried to go, Dameon would let her fly free and understand. If elspeth had to leave without even telling her bondmate, what would happen when she came back? dameon wouldopen his arms and ask her how she was, Rushton would growl at her and give her the cold shoulder. Dameon doesn't even have a cold shoulder. Dameon's a shoulder to cry on, a rock to lean on, Rushton's a cold, empty dungeon.
OK, OK, I can hear you all 'Oh come on, are you quite finished yet?' so this is my last point: I knoe a lot of you can't see elspeth as a mum, but I can. In fact, I think she'd be quite good at it. But if she did, well she'd still be all over the place wouldn't she? So to balance it all out, she'd have to at least have a fairly steady bond mate, otherwise her kids' lives would be completely messed up. So, who do you think's the best dad? Rushton? Or Dameon?
Alright, I'm nearly finished. Just one last thing...

[glow=royal blue,2,300]DAMEON RULES!!!!!!!!![/glow]

[Domick]

YAY! Another Dameon supporter!

I think I should also mention that writing that much is an impressive achievement!

[Emi267]

Thankyou, it's nice to be appreciated! I had a lot to say... beat that, crazy rushton supporters!!!

[glow=red,2,300]GO DAMEON!!![/glow]

[Unykorn]

I was curious, so I checked the word count ... that was a whole 1015 words! (not including Kayt's quote!) *is awed*

Now, having said that, just because Dames is 'nicer', it doesn't mean he'd make a better father. I mean, in Obernewytn, Rushton showed his paternal side with Selmar ... He'd make a great Dad! And secondly, as Elf and Rushton are better suited for each other, they would have a more loving relationship, which would surely benefit the kids.

I know that's only a small part of what you said, but I'll have to rebut to the rest soem other time coz I have to go!

[Lauren Hedgehog]

unykorn said:

And secondly, as Elf and Rushton are better suited for each other, they would have a more loving relationship,

I still think that Elf and Dames are better suited
and I think that Dames would make a great Dad ;D

[Emi267]

1015? What??? I did that?? You've GOT to be kidding!!! *is amazed* You know what was really scary about that? When I FINALLY finished typing it, I tried to post it, but without me realising it, I was logged off, and I lost my whole post!!! OK, so how many people would have gone 'Oh no! My post! Nooooooo!!!' and given up? *raises hand* Lucky I'd backed it up on word every 10 minutes or so!
Anyways, I'm posting again for a reason. ATTACK, DAMEON SUPPORTERS!!!
Beezlebub, the whole point of my post was to demonstrate how DAMEON is better suited for Elspeth than Rushton. and I wasn't saying Dameon would make a better dad overall than Rushton, just that Dameon would be a steadier one because he'd be there more often than Rushton, which is very important especially since Elspeth is always on the move. I mean, if you come from a family where there are two parents, one goes away for a day , and you think nothing of it. But if they both go away you suddenly feel a lot less steady, don't you? so if Elspeth goes away all the time, she needs a steady bondmate to stay with the kids (for most of the time, anyway). I would also like to point out that I never said in that post that Dameon was nicer than Rushton. Although...

ksl said:

HE'S A GIT!!!!!

ARROGANT, CONCIETED, RUDE, JEALOUSLY POSSESIVE AND WHINGY!!!!!!

YUK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

KSL

(that was directed on Rushton - if you don't believe me check out the first two posts on page 3 of this thread)

min said:

*puts hand up*
YUK! I wouldn't want a whiney dramatist with solidarity/inferiority issues around me!! It's sensible, kind and emotionally stable all the way for me

(again, that post was directed at Rushton. Read posts #2 and #3 page 84)

gypsywanderer said:

*Also raises hand*
I couldn't stand him! I'd have slapped him withing ten minutes of being introduced. He's so self-centred. For instance, the girl he supposedly loves is dying, and where is he? Not sitting by her bedside like the guy she REALLY loves, but sulking in the desert becuase everything didn't go his way.

I also couldn't put up with the brooding. If he wants to say something WHY WON'T HE JUST SAY IT? But no, instead we sulk and make everyone else miserable while they try to figure out whats wrong with him.

(No prizes for guessing who THAT was directed at! #4 page 84)

ksl said:

*raises hand*

All: Oh God... here we go...

Rushton is the most IRRITATING, self centred, possessive, arrogant, nasty, jealous, icky bloody CREEP!!!

He didn't care about hurting Dameon, he didn't care enough to really fight for Elf. He just walked about brooding until she got swoony over him and THEN he told her loved her.

Dameon is the victim here. He's the good guy. He's the REAL man. He may not be all broody and stuff, but he's got really important qualities, like kindness and loyalty and selflessness that Rushton can never hope to get.

So there.

*runs away before Rushton can make her shovel the snow*

(#7 page 84)

katiska said:

ksl said:

Rushton is the most IRRITATING, self centred, possessive, arrogant, nasty, jealous, icky bloody CREEP!!!

'nuff said.

(#8 page 84. I like page 84. Lots of people posted memorable things, as I'm sure you can tell)

No, that wasn't ALL the quotes I could find about Rushton. But I think they portray Rushton's personality to a tee...

[glow=limegreen,2,300]DAMEON RULES!!![/glow]

P.S.

hedgehog said:

unykorn said:

And secondly, as Elf and Rushton are better suited for each other, they would have a more loving relationship,

I still think that Elf and Dames are better suited
and I think that Dames would make a great Dad ;D

Thank-you Laura Hedgehog! See? I am right! (would you believe in the time it took me to assemble this post Luara here was able to do a post? Just goes to show how much effort I put into my posts! Or maybe it just shows how easily I can be distracted...)

[Min]

*high-fives Emi*
Indeed. Nice to have another Dameon supporter around!!!

[Emi267]

^*returns Min's hi-five* Have you noticed? Us Dameon supporters are gaining ground!
^
^
^
^ (check out the poll)

[basicneeds]

lol *fell out of loop on this one to* i totally agree that dames and elf are suited to each other but so are her and rushton. sometimes with a relationship you dont need/want/have to express everything you think or feel. you do that with your clsoest and most trusted friend, dameon!
if she shared everything with her partner, like you guys suggested she could do with dameon, the relationship might/probably would fall apart. but if she kept a few things to herself, like she does with rushton, i htink ti woudl last alot longer.
i think maybe she sees dameon and mathew as brothers but rushton as more.
*waits to get eaten alive by dameon supporters*

[Fuil Dearg]

i havent posted a proper reply yet. i will once iv read the whole thread.

[basicneeds]

*blinks* your going to read ALL of it
im all for reading peopels arguments but ALL of the thread

[Fuil Dearg]

yup. all of it. im kindof busy at the moment tho. so it it might be a few months before i read it.

[basicneeds]

*shakes head* tell me if you find anything interesting

[Emi267]

ALL of it? You're NUTS!!! Okay, so I like to be thorough myself, but you HAVE realised there are 87 pages to this thing, don't you? And each one is ten miles long? Oh well, you will soon learn...

(btw, I got as far as page 5 before got bored. but hey, I only skipped 72 pages! )

basicneeds said:

lol *fell out of loop on this one to* i totally agree that dames and elf are suited to each other but so are her and rushton. sometimes with a relationship you dont need/want/have to express everything you think or feel. you do that with your clsoest and most trusted friend, dameon!
if she shared everything with her partner, like you guys suggested she could do with dameon, the relationship might/probably would fall apart. but if she kept a few things to herself, like she does with rushton, i htink ti woudl last alot longer.
i think maybe she sees dameon and mathew as brothers but rushton as more.
*waits to get eaten alive by dameon supporters*

Yes, you WILL be eaten alive. OK, a FEW things? A FEW things??? Understatement of the YEAR! She doesn't tell him ANYTHING!!!!!! And I still say she would think of it as a betrayal to go talk to Dameon instead of Rusthon. So therefore you have to stop thinking she'll just deal with that that way. In fact, I don't think she'd feel safe confiding anything to anyone except Rushton, and we all know what she's like with THAT! and she wouldn't have to confide everything to Dameon if she didn't want to, he knows how to give her space (unlike SOME people we know...). Besides, who says sharing everthing would break them up? (Well, unless she was having an affair and she told him, but that would be a bit stupid ) Isn't that to point of a relatinship? To share everything? And as to thinking of him as more a brother than anything, I think that's gonna change when she finds out he loves her, don't you? And she's going to find out, one way or another. It's always the way. Unless he dies. Which he's not. Although possible, it is unlikely (HIGHLY unlikely) and it would upset pretty much everyone, wreck the story, and may result in some authors being strangled. which is why he is not going to die, Elspeth will find out he loves her, they will bond, and live happily ever after. The end. Oh, and Elspth will save the world, lead the beasts to freedom and put Dragon on the throne. etc etc. The end.

Now, guess what? I have a new argument! (Yes, I CAN hear that groan that just arose from you all, the same one I hear every time I post, because you all know you are in for another epic).
It has been touched upon, although not greatly disputed, about the way Rushton goes off and sulks for forever and a day, every time something doesn't go his way. And he always has to get his way (or at least get SOMETHING, like the promise of undying love from Elspeth) before he snaps out of it and gets on with life, which is quite a sneaky way of manipulating people (and we all hate to see our fave characters manipulated, don't we?) when you think about it. Now, I want to know, why does Elspeth like Rushton? Why does she LOVE Rushton? What I no-brainer! (*ahem* sorry just forget about that last statement) OK, lets have a look at why she loves Dames and Matthew (I know this is a different kind ot love but it's still LOVE and there's always a reason for it) Matthew: he's her friend, they can have fun together, he's like her >little< brother, she likes to take care of him, there's the 'I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine' between them, they see each other's point of view (literally, I mean, she can use his eyes!), he's bubbly and gorgeous, he's friendly and romantic - kind of her opposite.
Dameon: He's quiet, kind, caring, gentle, understanding, first impressions don't count, always willing to give others a second chance - every inch the gentle giant, and I think she wants to protect him too. In fact, I think she wants to protect EVERYONE! But that's just me.
Now, for Rushton: *silence* . Okay, I don't really know. But I suspect she finds his pathetic sulking rather romantic. Which is all well and good, except what happens when the novelty of having a bondmate with the emotional strength of a five year old wears off? It happens. Girl/guy falls in love with guy/girl (or girl/guy) with serious emotional issues/depression, has a great time trying to sort out their lives, until they get sick of having to deal with it cos they just can't and get stuck with pain in the *rear end* bondmate (husband/wife) who sulks all the time. And some people are fantastic, bright, cheery when they're happy/high, and absolute drags when they're down. Problem is, Rushton's a real drag when he's down, and it gets worse - he's never up! Okay, when have you ever seen him happy, on top of the world, yeah-life-sucks-but-who-cares kind of mood? Ever? Where all he does is smile and be happy? *waits for response*... *silence* . Yeah, I thought so. NEVER! So what about poor Elspeth who can never spontaneously be happy? *takes on airy tone* She stays that way. Forever. Completely bereft of happiness. And her and Dameon can be a pair, because he will never love anyone else (because that's the kind of guy he is - uttrely devoted, even when the love of his life doesn't care she's the love of his life).

Here are my dog's thoughts on the matter:
p;/.lkjm,eddeuajpmedejkouansw uyredoskcjmkrfskd djehfldlsocpsltoehdk jasszhzgosaugsldjdktbgloosnweddd eswloisdtxehsahkgifumisnewok;tfctashkzaarsduoolofckpUrDWuUGsgfieskligshetshjnezl;fckaslgrawuS<sLzhdptcjodlnrf!

So there!

[Fuil Dearg]

basicneeds said:

you do that with your clsoest and most trusted friend, dameon!

emi267 said:

In fact, I don't think she'd feel safe confiding anything to anyone except Rushton

maruman is elspeth's most trusted friend. it says so in TKP. and i think she'd confide things to him that she wouldnt confide to neither rushton nor dameon nor matthew if she needed to. if it was very important in many cases he'd already kno anyway. either from reading/hearing her thoughts or in some other way such as from the oldones. she says that if she lost maruman she doesnt know what she would do. i hope maruman doesnt die. i dont think he will. but i hope he wont. i think if rushton died elspeth would mourn his loss but she'd still be avble to live on. i think if maruman died she'd be totally devastated.

[Emi267]

Alright, who's side are you on? And you're not the only one who'd be devastated if maruman died. But Elspeth would have to live on, cos let's face it, he's old, he's crazy, he's missing an eye, his health's going, he keeps walking over blacklands, and he keeps wandering off. I don't think he'll make the end of the next book.
And I have to ask, what exactly does that have to do with the debate? Although I probably can't talk, I think I go off topic all the time. Oh hang on, I think I get what you're getting at. But although Maruman's good for Elspeth to confide in, he doesn't really care about her mortal/moral troubles, just her spiritual/quest related ones. And what with all these slashes I've been using recently, I think I'm slowly turning to beastspeak. and drifting off the subject... anyway, the point is, Maruman just isn't the same as a human confidant. Cos he might be good for getting it off your chest, but face it, you can't expect to get any decent feedback from him.

My goodness! Someone actually thought I was worth quoting? I feel honoured...

[Fuil Dearg]

emi267, im a rushton supported in so far as who i think is best for elspeth. but i realsie that dameon is amazing. i just think that he's more like a brother to her. or very close friend. ur right about that mortal/moral and spiritual/quest dintinction. i think that the main reason that elpeth wouldnt confide in some of her closest friend is because she wouldnt want to worry them and also because of what they might do in an effort to protect her. not what dameon might do tho, cos i think he'd give her the freedom she'd need. also, the other reason she cant confide somethings to them is because she cant tell them about her quest. although she doesnt confide mortal/moral/emotional/personal troubles to maruman i think he often knows about them and sometimes says something to her about them to help her in some way. i think he cares about how she feels and her personal troubles but realises that her quest is far more important than them and also dislikes human emotions. he has often heard her thoughts and commented on them in some way.