Religion

[Kaylan-R]

but how could he do an experiment? what the hell is he anyway? and why do we refer to him as a he? This is just like:do you believe in aliens, which i certainly do not!

hmm
kay

[Min]

I didn't refer to s/he/it/they as 'he' though. I don't think the sex of whatever's out there is important - but society being what it is immediately pins any positions of authority (such as "the creator of life") to males...silly really.

How could s/he/it/they do an experiment? Who knows? We don't have infinite wisdom ;D we sure as hell can't say that we know everything.

I don't think aliens really come into it either...the issue to me is more transdimensional. Scientists have proven (mathematically) the existence of something ridiculous like 22 dimensions (the mind boggles) in order to prove string theory - among other things. What is the purpose for multiple dimensions? I can't even begin to conceive it. I'm sure it has something to do with higher levels of consciousness, but I'm starting to go cross eyed...

Don't take this post as me saying I believe someone/thing created us...I'm still undecided, hence all the questions

[Gahltha~]

Wow, i'm surpirsed at the content of your replies. One thing first of all, i don't believe in any way that we were created by any infinite wisdom being, or any beings for that matter. If i was to believe that though, i'd have to say that i think the universe IS the 'being'. I really don't know, random thought there

Next point, so many people think of multi-dimensions as kind of like parallel worlds or something. It's not really. Because we exist in a 3-dimensional realm we can only comprehend all dimensions up to and including 3-dimensions, as explained in Einstien's Theories of Relativity. The dimension thing is just a way of telling where you are in space. If it takes 25 measurements to tell where you are, then your're in a 25-dimensional place. Not that any of you really care, so sorry to (i can't thinkof the word so i'lluse this one) overwrite what you said Min, but there are supposedly infinite dimensions, we just don't have the minds to concieve anything more than 3d.

I do agree with you about something to do with high consciousness or high plain or existence.

More replies are most welcome.

Gahltha ~ Watcher of Days

P.S. I'm not trying to take over this thread either go back to religion talk whenever you want

[Roland]

Can I just say, I am a scientist, a biologist and a christian.

Why? Because having seen, on a really close level the wonder of life, I find it hard to believe that there isn't a higher purpose.

Human's have something about them that can't be defined by science. That, I believe, is the soul.

The universe was created by the Big Bang. According to physics that involved the creation of all matter in the universe from nothing. How that happened is yet to be explained. Until it can be, I choose to believe that there is some kind of higher being. I choose to name that being GOd.

That's my 2c anyways.

[Gahltha~]

If you truely are Christian then you can believe in the Big Bang, because that is based upon genisis which goes against all that Christianity is based on.

Gahltha ~ Watcher of Days

[Min]

Um, sorry Gahltha, but turks can believe whatever she wants. We're here to discuss personal beliefs, not patronise.

[Dark One]

We live in a four dimensional universe. The three of space, and one of time.

With current thinking, the extra dimensions are too small to traverse in the normal way. There is a possible (and probable) theory that they were left over from the creation of the universe. If you think about it, when you build a model (or a house), you have waste material left over, so thats one possibility of what the extra dimensions could be.

As for the Big Bang, there is now some controversy as to whether it actually took place or not. The latest satellite (can't remember its name) sent up to map the cosmic background radiation (CBR) found a few suprises.

After the universe creation, the CBR should have been uniform and smooth, which would indicate a 'spherical' infinite universe.

However, the findings it returned showed that the CBR had many more 'lumps' in it than it should have, indicating that the universe was indeed finite, and shaped roughly like a balloon. This didn't sit well with the Big Bang thoery.

There's more to this, but its probably too indepth to go into here. They are sending up another satellite in a couple of years (i think) to confirm these readings.

[shadowoutcast]

HAHA, I was so waiting for someone to bring up Enstine.

Big Bang don't work, as much as you want to excape the subject of a 'singlarity' the Big Bang created a new one other then that of a 'suprime being' (which was its intent... to defy the Church at the time). I'm a bias believer scientificaly in String Theory, which at the momment is a little measy.

I also say that from a scienctific point the desribtion of Genesis is nothing to try and make scienctific sence out of. The timespan of events is not clear, eg the spaning length of ONE day is not defined (except by our standards ie 24hrs = 1 day). It also discribes it in two parts one of the whole process ie the 7 'Days' of creation and the account of Men (human creation).

The Bible is not about historical recreation, there are very few dates within the Bible and even then most Theolgist debate over them.

Ok down to a point, expanding of what a number of you have asked, mentioned and so forth.

Time Theory

Time moves and dosen't stop, but for when time begain is not known or that the occurence of Time from a Special Relitivity understanding, time is more inderpendent of our own thinking (such as the creation of clocks to track it). As someone mentioned, if this creater was 'All Powerful' would it not be posible that this being may be excempt from time, (such as the 'jump' of an electrons energy level).

Why?

Someone mentioned that there thought on the creation of the human race was well 'wrong'. In most aspects I believe that having our own free will to chose a moral concept is wrong, not us as a race.

From reading the Bible, talking with friends and doing courses in this area of 'Why and What for?' from a Christain point of view it ends with Love, God had love so he created something to give it to, and also gave it the chose of giving it back (worship). We as a race have forgot or attacked that purpose with avengence.

Since this is getting rather long and more like a rant then anything else I'll just say that although most of the scientist community would rather have it as 'No God' in exploring was around it they have most of the time hit the same wall that most things more then less support creation. But thats just what I've dug up.

I leave chose to you

[Min]

shadowoutcast said:

From reading the Bible, talking with friends and doing courses in this area of 'Why and What for?' from a Christain point of view it ends with Love, God had love so he created something to give it to, and also gave it the chose of giving it back (worship).

Wouldn't a super-intelligent being prefer 'friendship' to 'blind adoration'? It seems a little selfish. To say that we were created for the purposes of love, because something loved us, insinuates that whatever it was didn't want us to fall all over each other trying to lick it's toes. It wanted us to be on the same level as s/he/it/them, the level that friendships exist upon.

Personally, I will not worship anything. I'm responsible for my decisions in life, good or bad. Not someone/thing else.

[Lucy]

gahltha said:

I'm far more likely to believe other religions theories than the Christain way.

Gahltha ~ Watcher of Days

Which, and why so? (Just out of general curiosity!)



I'm just gonna knock this thread off of its flow for a sec and voice my opinions with no real relation to any of the surrounding posts. Have to say though, although I haven't fully followed everything (time and space, eeps!) I've loved reading everyone's comments.

Anyways, I don't believe in God or higher powers, but I have to say that I really admire people who do and am, at times, a little jealous. That may sound odd, but I listen to quite a lot of classical music, and many artists on solo albums tend to include hymns and songs of praise. When I hear many of these songs the beauty, lyrics and emotion fills me with a feeling - inspiration perhaps - that I really don't know where to place. I'm also moved by the scenes of community witnesses at sermons and church gatherings that I have witnessed both first hand and through television. If people's faith can inspire them, make them comforted and safe and help them through their lives by evoking feeling such as that then I am envious of it. I often think that people's faith can push them the extra mile, and I have oten mooted (with myself!) whether I have a nodule of belief deep inside of me that could be nurtured and help me to become a better person through it.

Hope all that made some kind of sense!

I've gone off the point a little, I think, but I just felt the need to rattle that out! Resume conversation about time and space and scary complicated stuff...

[Roland]

gahltha said:

If you truely are Christian then you can believe in the Big Bang, because that is based upon genisis which goes against all that Christianity is based on.

Gahltha ~ Watcher of Days

I have no idea what you mean by that because the statement makes no sense.

I will, however say this.

My beliefs are well thought out and my own. I am entitled to them, as you are to yours. Rather than telling me I am wrong, you my tell me that you disagree. That would be the polite, reasonable thing to do, and will leave me less likely to call you a thingyhead, ok?

[Gahltha~]

I'm sorry, that came out all wrong. I had no intention of telling you your beliefs were wrong. I respect them. I was just saying that the Big Bang goes against the beliefs of Christianity.

You are ofcourse entitled to your beliefs. I'm sorry if it came out wrong. I would never go around telling people that what they think is wrong and they should change. Sorry again.

Gahltha ~ Watcher of Days

[MajiKat]

i'm not sure i have a creation myth i believe in. Paganism focuses more on the Goddess on earth now, than someone as a creator of earth. I do not believe that the GOddess created the world as a planet - i believe that She, with the God, helped to create life. all life needs the feminine and the masculine. Pagan faiths explain the cycle of life in relation to the movements of the sun and moon. for instance, and this is hard to explain without writing an essay, but i will do my best:

everything in the universe is alive - the pagan universe is a holistic one. this means that the planet itself, as well as everything in it, is alive. this holistic universe comprises of the four elements of earth, air, fire and water. okay, for witches, the goddess or divine spirit is in-dwelling in nature, and nature is her cloak, her clothes, her physical face. witches believe in the never-ending transformation of energy -energy is never lost from the universe, it simply reforms into something else, seen in the cycle of birth, death and rebirth. this is evident in nature, as in plants and trees, more so than in human lives.

witches belive in the Great Mother GOddess and Her consort the Horned God (where the idea of Satan comes from!) let me say that the Horned GOd is not satan - he is the LOrd of Beasts, the caregiver and protector of animals, as the Goddess is the protectpr of the physical earth. the months of Winter belong to the Goddess, for as well as being a creator, she is also a destroyer - but only the destructino necessary for the continuation of life. the God is the impregnator. the HOrner God's horns represent the crescent moon (a goddess symbol) and also the fallopian tubes of the female reproductive system. the thing about this is that the God and the Goddess are strongly connected to sex and fertitily, because the people who first believed in them..well, fertility and reproduction were more important than what they are today, by that i mean, it was about animals and crops reproducing and the earth being fertile enough to grown food. anyways, the Horned God impregnates the GOddess, then he dies, and is reborn again as her Son (Sun) in the preparation for summer. God energy is warm and summery - these are his months...okay, this is not making sense is it?

its hard to explain!!! the only thing i can say is that our Divine beings/spirits are part of the cycle of life and death, as is everything else, so they are involved with the life they created and nurtered.

whew! it took me years to understand all this stuff.

[shadowoutcast]

mysterikat said:

...the Horned God (where the idea of Satan comes from!)...

Sorry to do this to you but Neopaganisum 'Horned god' is infacted the recreation (or replica) of Pan, Greek god of Shephards. Also due to some discribtions from Revelations the image of Pan was also givin to the image of Satan, which is also incorrect. By definision Satans story is that of a Fallen Angle, he is also devious as he may take the apperence of an Angle in order to have 'invite.'

To address Min:

Did i impose 'blind' worship (which is foolish) or of a friend/relationship. For the second of the two is what I have experienced although it is a process to get there. Yet you have made you chose which I aplored for many people show no will in thought.

[Min]

I'm glad that you get the friend/relationship feeling from your faith, Shadow

[~Ethereal~]

shadowoutcast said:

Sorry to do this to you but Neopaganisum 'Horned god' is infacted the recreation (or replica) of Pan, Greek god of Shephards.

That's close. The Horned God is sort of a universal term, like saying the Mother Goddess. The Horned God has different aspects all over the world, Pan being one of them. In many parts of the Celtic Isles he has been known as Cerrunous, which literally translates into Horned One, which is why he is commonly called the Horned God in recent times.
And now I'll go back to letting MysteriKat talk because she explains thigns far better than I could.

[MajiKat]

Thank you Eth ;D. The Horned God is indeed a general term for the God of the earth. Pan is one name the Greeks gave to the Horned God, just as the Egyptians called their Horned God Osiris. the Celts called him Cernunnos and the British called him Herne. Dionysus is another Greek Horned God.

SO i am aware that Satan was a fallen angel, but i am talking merely of the physical representation of Satan that is given to us - part man, part goat. the Horned God in witchcraft represents the power of our instincts, so it is important for both men and women to be in touch with Him. the Horned God was given the physical image of part man, part goat to represent his connection with nature and the animals, and his connection to our instincts comes from the connection animals have to their instincts, to Knowing and Feeling and Intuition.

someone asked earlier about magic? i cannot do magic like the magic we think of. i cannot move things with my mind. magic in witchcraft is connected to the self, to knowing yourself. your instincts. its about connection and balance with nature. magic is as simple as planting a tree, nurturing it, tending it, and watching it grow. there is a certain amount of clarivoyance used in witchcraft, but again in a personal sense - its about being in touch with yourself and your true feelings and desires. for instance, i read Tarot, but i refuse to read for anyone other than myself, becuase it is my energy that is going into the cards and the readings, so i would unwillingly influence another persons reading, so it would not be tuned to them and their own self. Magic is everywhere in life - falling in love is magic. in witchcraft, magic is also about causing change by desire and directing energy, but only in relation to the Self. magic is what happens when you encounter the Divine. it is found in the experience of connecting to the divinity that dwells within yourself. its about perception. all that other stuff you see on TV is superficial nonsense. its fantasy and fairytales. its not real magic.

[shadowoutcast]

The representation of the Greek god Pan's images it something that the Roman Chatholic Church idealised with. Reason being that the Romans and Greeks had similar deities. Although this was a misrepresentation it did what it was made for and that was to force fear of Satan, and his leage of Fallen.

The thing turned out to backfire with a hebrew or Greek word more closly meaning 'In/have deep awe' being translated to the english word 'Fear'. This was mostly found in Psalms as something that would be this: I have deep awe in my Lord God, would become: I fear my Lord God <- now don't tell me that would not just put you off the idea of trust and understanding.

[MajiKat]

which is one of the reasons belief in a single God of any religious persuasion just never did it for me - how can you love and trust and respect a deity you fear? the thing about the celtic and pagan gods and goddesses that i believe in is that they are understood to represent aspects of yourself and the world around you. for instance, the mesopotamian goddess Ishtar is a goddess of war and a goddess of love, showing that you can have both these instincts inside of you. each god and goddess appears in your life to teach you something, but that something is not done through fear and vengence.

to me, that way of teaching made much more sense than the alternative - being afraid. i'm not saying that your god SO teaches you that way, but that was my experience of God when i was in the church (Anglican).

[shadowoutcast]

Yet you missed the other section of my statment (although your point is vaild). The other section was the fact that having a true fear in God is not to be scared of him as he might distroy you for it... that is completely against the nature of God. True Fear of God is to be in awe of him, to have so much awe in his love, grace and compassion. But alas it is ture that the mixup is imposed more and more in some church teachings as the people are teaching from what they understand, and in theolical debates it is a given that not many people understand ture fear in God but are more afriad of God

Just one of the many condradictions of thinking from trying to understand the Bible <- fun, yet hard to comprehend at times

[MajiKat]

but how can you fear God and still feel compassion and love for him? that is the part i do not understand. if i am fearful of something, i do not love it and trust it - i fear it! and how can fear inspire awe? i feel in awe of soemthing or someone when i am completely blown away by it - it is inspiring, its wonderous. i am never in awe of anything i fear. i'm not saying that to be fearful is to be weak or that fear is a negative concept - it is good to have healthy fears of things. but i cannot see how being feaful in any sense of the deity you believe in is healthy.

or are you talking about fear in relation to power - ie being fearful of someone's power over things? if so, i do not think that is healthy either. in witchcraft, power is centered on the self, not the deity. the deity is there to assist you with your own power in whatever capacity.

[Gahltha~]

I agree with Kat's 2nd last post. i think these gods were created from the people to help them and such. I'm not trying to impose anything on anyone, but worshipping a single god, especially one the instills fear is just a means for people to have power. I'm not bagging your gods or anything, i just think everyone should hear all angles of the story.

[Cookie Lover]

Well, as for my beleifs, they are still in the making process, as I don't know much about anything. I started going to chirch last year, and my beleifs are growing from there.

[shadowoutcast]

bah all misunderstanding... fact is it was a traslation error.

My comment is stupid english

[Cookie Lover]

I've lost the plot. Whats a mistranslation?