Religion

[Dark One]

linja said:

jgduffin said:

But just because you believe in something it doesn't necessarily mean it exists. I'm not knocking your beliefs, but i'm just trying to say that i would probably want proof if i believed in something strongly enough

Yes, you are absolutely right. I would want proof too! ^_^ It's not all about blind faith for me, I have studied it, still studying it, finding out plenty about it, finding other paths and seeing the value in it, the truthfulness in it, and I am convince (thro many experiences) that Jesus Christ is the way. There is plenty of evidence around. Historically, Geographically, (Eh, are these even words? haha, they sound ok to me!) ^_^

Have a read of this:
The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus By Lee Strobel

Note: this guy totally did not believe in Jesus, He was actually trying to find evidence that Jesus Christ (and anything associated with Him) DOESN'T exist. Thro' the investigations, he did a 180 tho'. ^_^

I do think Jesus existed, but maybe not exactly as portrayed. Most of the events and persons in the bible can be traced back through history to actual persons or events. Most 'myths' (excuse the term) are based on actual facts. so some of what happened is possible

[LinJa]

jgduffin said:

I do think Jesus existed, but maybe not exactly as portrayed. Most of the events and persons in the bible can be traced back through history to actual persons or events. Most 'myths' (excuse the term) are based on actual facts. so some of what happened is possible

My response might be long
I will get back to you in a couple of days ^_^
Darn all these exams ...
>=T

[shadowoutcast]

maeve said:

If that comment was targeted at me shadow outcast i should probably clarify.
My own personal morality is by no means absolute. I do not believe i am right in every situation or that i have the abilities to make decisions for the rest of humanity (this is where the flaw in humanity is entirely relevant- because one person is not capable of judging what is right for everyone). But if you think about it very few people are ever in that position of responsability, most only haveto deal with issues concerning thesmelves, so yeah, they have every right to draw on their own individual beliefs of what is right and wrong.
I have always found religions too constricting in this sense. If you follow the Bible you are following (essentially) a rule book, i think ethics is way too complicated and has rules that can be broken so as i said i would rather look at things individually, but that's just the philosopher in me.

Oh no I've been regarded as a targeter . Well I was just giving a generalisation of my view on atheist. But in my own 'run ins' with other atheist they have a standing that they can have 'absolute' morality from a flawed judgment, this is also known as an over active ego but I wont go there. In regard to the bible being a rule book, I would guess you've only been quoted 2 books from the Old Testament. For the rest of it is mainly (from the way I've read it) guild lines on a lifeful walk other then that of one that is by 'world view'. Not thats it easy mind you, I can't say I'm pure, holy, etc I have been given grace to obtain that because I'm always falling short.

Meh enough of this stuff the more I talk, chat, type and try an explain experience the less words that seem to be able to describe it (stupid English lingo). Also from what friends I have how are atheist, they're like talking to a wall. ie 'Give experience and their reasoning is that its dilution'

///

(Coment to the post above me) <- I'm replying to some like 2 pages back.

Christianity is able to be disproved, how well in the Gosples it says that Jesus Christ was risin to life 3 day after the Cross. Well if the grave AND remains of Chirst body were ever located (not likely in my opinion, but went did that count) then christainity would have been a waste of time from the start.

Now not that I'm bias or anything but the bible is very accurate, dispite very much of it still under debate and even more of it is metaphoic then litteral (seven days of Genis is writen like a pome more that an acount). The bible has also gone under so main traclations from mainly the greek rewrites of the once origainals. But most if the bible is still intact as very much 'fined combed' as humanly posible <- which is its flaw. So I don't just believe in some guy from a book I trust in Jesus Christ, my Savour.

[MajiKat]

OKay, i need to ask...

firstly, i'm not anti-Christian. i just want to clarify that early on.

Can someone tell me, what exactly is Jesus meant to be saving you from? And how are you able to put your trust in the hands of someone you have never met?

i mean, scientificially, it is (as yet) impossible for someone to come back from the dead... i know its metaphysical, but i have just never been able to believe in it.

i guess i aslo like to think that the only person who can save me (from ... i dunno, anything really) is me. when i say i believe in the goddess, i mean i believe in her not as a deity that has power over me, or who is going to help me or protect me in any way (only i can do that), but as something that is inside of me.

is that what you guys feel about Jesus or God? that he is inside of you and is part of you?

i'm just trying to understand. i have read the bible, and i have given it a lot of thought over the years, but to me, none of it seemed real enough to warrant my belief. i guess i needed something more empowering, and, i dunno, more balanced?

i don't want to offend anyone here. i'm just asking.

[LinJa]

jgduffin said:

I do think Jesus existed, but maybe not exactly as portrayed. Most of the events and persons in the bible can be traced back through history to actual persons or events. Most 'myths' (excuse the term) are based on actual facts. so some of what happened is possible

The Case For Christ doesn't just talk about the existence of Jesus. It's evidence for the things He claims Himself to be. From being the Son of God to performing miracles. Jesus is God's plan of Salvation for us, so that we can reach God and have a relationship with Him directly. Jesus Christ is the bridge to God.

Okay, Mysteri Kat, I'm glad you asked ^_^
You said once "who can watch a storm, or the waves breaking on the beach, the new growth of Spring, the sybtle change of Autumn, and not feel connected to that?" and that is why you believe there is a goddess of nature.
I believe God is everywhere and He made nature. He made the universe, He made the world, and He made us. (I find the bing bang theory .. a lil hmm, not quite convincing. Afterall, how can anything come out of nothing? A bing BANG and microorganisms just sprouts everywhere?)

Mysteri Kat, I'll give you a quick run thro' of Christianity. (You probably know alot of it)
God made Adam and Eve. They lived in the garden of Eden, walking and talking with God. Then along comes Satan and tempts them to disobey God (The serpent and fruit etc). They end up thrown out of the garden, and this is when Sin is born. (Sin is the wrong attitude of the heart and because of this Sin, we commit sins - doing the wrong things). Adam and Eve wanted to be better than God. From then on, there is this huge gap between the humans and God. God is HOLY and PURE, He cannot stand anything unpure. In the Old Testament, to reach God and be forgiven, people had to make sacrifices that was pleasing to God. The OT is filled with phrophesies of the Messiah that would come and save everyone. In the New Testament, this is fulfilled. Along comes Jesus. Already, the way He is born is a miracle, thro' a virgin Mary. So being born this way, Jesus is without Sin. He has never sinned in His life as a human. NEVER. This is very important. God said, along the lines of this,"The wages of Sin is death". Our punishment for the sins we have committed is death. This is why we die. Eternal death. But Jesus, He took our punishment for us and died on the cross. He doesn't have to die, He's never sinned. He is sinless, and yet He sacrificed Himself for us. The next bit is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. Jesus predicted He would rise 3 days after His death. How do we know He did? Because of the vast amount of eye witnesses that saw Him. (With the hole in his hand from the nails and wound on the side of his body from the spear.) And as Darth Shadow Outcast said: the fact that Jesus' remains have not been found. This is because Jesus rose into Heaven (body and all) on clouds INFRONT OF WITNESSES. If Jesus is NOT who He claimed to be, the Son of God, then God would never have resurrected Jesus. And Jesus would just be another great man on earth such as Gandhi.
After Jesus left, He sent us a helper, the Holy Spirit.
If we confess our sins, and accepted Jesus Christ as our saviour, we are forgiven and the Holy Spirit will come and dwell within us. If you ask sincerely, I promise you God will answer and forgive you.

What is Jesus Christ saving us from? Eternal death in hell. I believe when we die, we will go either to Heaven or Hell. However, some people don't believe in Heaven or Hell. Let's say, in your view, there is no Heaven or Hell, and I'm wrong. Then we just disappear when we die, and nothing else comes of it. BUT, what if there IS a Heaven or Hell, and what you thought and believed is wrong, then you would end up in hell, surround by flames of fire and being tortured FOREVER. You would take that risk?
I know that when I die, I WILL go to Heaven to be with God and Jesus. Anyone watched Constitine? I reckon there's a pretty good scene of what Hell would look like in there. (Even tho there are some bits in the movie that are incorrect.)

How can you think that you are the only one to save yourself, when you have made countless mistakes? I would never rely on the ME that has stuffed up so many times. I would much rather rely on God who I know is Powerful and Almighty and NEVER stuffs up.

Watch The Passion of The Christ. That movie sums up alot of stuff. It moved me so much visualising what Jesus went thro to save us, and showing us how much God loves us.

Oh my dear, I sound like a preacher. I wanted to answer as much of Kat's Q'z as I could. If there's something you still don't understand. Feel free to ask ^_^

I have grown fond of everyone here and wish we could all go to Heaven! ^_^

[avra]

linja said:

BUT, what if there IS a Heaven or Hell, and what you thought and believed is wrong, then you would end up in hell, surround by flames of fire and being tortured FOREVER. You would take that risk?

I don't know, but for me, I don't really like the sound of that reasoning. It's like believing out of fear. That's not really good enough for me to believe in something. If it were me, I'd want to believe something because I thought it was right, not because I was afraid of what happened to me if I didn't... God uses scare tactics? That doesn't seem particularly God-like....

Also, just being picky, because I'm like that, but if, as you say, "Afterall, how can anything come out of nothing?" then what did God make It all out of then?

Also, actually, just out of pure curiosity to an ignorant one such as I, what about the other planets? Is God said to have made those as well?

[Dark One]

Religion has changed over time though. It was originaly believed that the earth was the centre and all the other planets (and the sun) revolved around it. Religion had to adapt when it was proved that we live in a heliocentric (sun centered) system

[shadowoutcast]

The heliocentric system was created by Galieo, a strong Catholic. He even used phrase form the bible to try and convince the Church. Galieo never intended the system he observed to be the turning point to create doubt yet see that the origainal observation of the Platygæan system, observed by Plato a Greek phiosopher, and in he's time the Church didn't exist yet so therefore he was of 'pagen' origins, yet it was the common belief at the time. Not just religion was against Galieo to it was most of that eras underground scientific community to until they to observed the same thing.

Humans are always scared of what they don't understand or have not experience for it is ether, out of there understanding/comfort or out of their control. With many discoveries it takes time (short or long) for the whole of the human race to adapt not just Religion or as I would have it a Faith, Religion is such a... ritual where Faith and trust is a chose. Which never ends up begin easy.

Also to add futher comment, no more Soapbox theratics (hell, fire and brimstone) please it not what Christainity, as I believe it is about.

[MajiKat]

What is Jesus Christ saving us from? Eternal death in hell. I believe when we die, we will go either to Heaven or Hell. However, some people don't believe in Heaven or Hell. Let's say, in your view, there is no Heaven or Hell, and I'm wrong. Then we just disappear when we die, and nothing else comes of it. BUT, what if there IS a Heaven or Hell, and what you thought and believed is wrong, then you would end up in hell, surround by flames of fire and being tortured FOREVER. You would take that risk?

Thanks for your answers. firstly, i do not think that i am taking a risk because i have no belief in hell or heaven at all. i think that when we die, our physical body dies and can go no further (incidently, when i die i would prefer to be wrapped in a piece of cotton and put straight into the ground so my body can go to where it came from - the earth) but our souls, i believe, become part of a great collective of souls, waiting to be returned to life. i don't think that your whole soul returns, like in reincarnation, but that part of it does, part of it returns to begin the cycle of life and death again. i have a strong belief in past lives and want to explore it more, becuase i have had memories or people and places that are not my own, not from this life that i am living now. and i do not think that this collective of souls is specially for human beings. i think that all things living, whether it be a woman, a dog or a tree, have a soul, and have shared souls and will share souls.

i guess this belief is why i cannot think that places such as heaven and hell exist. i do not think that i am necessarily right and anyone who believes differently is wrong, only that i have no fear of burning in hell because i do not believe that that will ever happen. i think souls need to be returned and reinvented, becuase without it there would be no balance in humanity - no polarity between good people and evil people. and i also cannot believe the notion of original sin. you say Jesus was pure because he was born of a virgin who was without sin, yet how can a new born baby be a sinner? i don't think you can be born with sin, but you can definitety aquire it. it seems to me to be environmental, born of learned behaviour, not genes.



How can you think that you are the only one to save yourself, when you have made countless mistakes? I would never rely on the ME that has stuffed up so many times. I would much rather rely on God who I know is Powerful and Almighty and NEVER stuffs up.

it is because i am human that i have made mistakes and i now i am the one to save myself. i have learnt from these mistakes and will continually learn from them. i guess what i am saying is that it is my responsibility and i cannot rely on another to carry that burden for me. i think this is another thing that draws me to the goddess as opposed to the christain god. she makes countless mistakes, and had to clean up her own messes. that is a big thing to do and an even bigger lesson to learn. she grieves, is angry, jealous, beautiful and terrible at the same time. she is both sides of the coin - serenity and rage, beauty and ugliness. i guess i respect that more than a god who never makes mistakes.

but i respect you for standing proud with your beliefs and thank you for answering my questions. if you have any that you think i can answer, please ask and i will do my best.

Blessing
MK


(my quote thing wasn't working properly )

[shadowoutcast]

First off you mentioned Sin. In a biblical sence is the act or 'follow' through of a temptation or thought of sin. Sin is also unmesurialbe and can be discribed as clouds blocking our view of the sun, and in saying in is unmesuriable is saying that any sin equals that of another sin (like a petty thug is the same as a murderer). Sin came as by chose of Eve who followed up on a temptation of taking fruit from the Tree of Good and Evil, by the serpent suggesting. 'The serpent told the woman, "You won't die. God knows that the moment you eat from that tree, you'll see what's realy going on. You'll be just like God, knowing everything, ranging all the way from good to evil."'Genesis 3:4-5 MSG And so she followed through with the thought "I will be like God." Adam? well he followed like a puppy dog and eat it as well.

In return we they and us were punised for disobidience given pain for their chosen path they made for themselves so we're all sinful not in genes but in sprit. The thing with Jesus is that his conseption was of the Holy Sprit(the third of the one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirt) that fact that it was a virgin is irellivent (not to offend any cathlics.

But that is the Old news the New news is that God set his plain in motion to get us back from what we had done. That was done by his own son. (Jesus said)"Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you'll recover you life. I'll show you how to take a real rest"Matthew 11:28 MSG. See I believe in a God that real today and his resurection of his Son and my experience in the power of his Holy Spirt. I have delt with and experienced forces before, witchcraft as you have named it is one of those forces. For if I denied the power the unseen therefore I wont beable to defend myself against the unseen.

A quote from a movie The Usual Suspects puts it this way: "The greatest trick the devil every pulled was telling the world that he don't exist".

The stuff about stuffing up will I've done that every step of my life yet I have friends that pray for me and keep me acountable for my short fall and as I do them. This life was never ment to be easy, and if you do come to believe I tell you now it only gets harder from there. Many non-believers have this thing that you must be "Perfect" to enter a Church, but infact I was broken when I entered, and will always be but by grace which is undservered by the love of Jesus I have unlocked the chains on my heart.

As for the rest of you... I'ld like to see everyone come to see what I found what I have within my sprit. For I can tell you that a lot of it can't be defind, and that is the worst thing with undfinable experience. English just don't cut it

[end of rable]

[MajiKat]

hmm, i'm not too sure i understand what you're trying to say Darth

i understand the concept of sin, but i'm not sure i understand why a religion needs that concept. why is sin so important in christianity?why is needing to ask God for forgiveness so important? wouldn't he understand that you are human and you make mistakes? and that if you were created in his image, wouldn't you, like him, be sorry for those mistakes?

i guess i am confused. i have always been confused and slightly unsure about what christianity tried to teach me. that is why i left the church. well one of the reasons why. i mean, i didn't know why i needed to ask god for fogiveness, when it seemed like commonsense to me to be sorry for the mistakes i had made...and to do what i could to make up for them. my parents, who are not relgioius and do not believe in god or any other higher power, taught me that. its morality, isn't it? so i guess i never understood why i needed to ask for fogiveness when i had already given it to myself.

the other thing - how do you know if god has fogiven you? aren't you unsure? do't you worry that no, he hasn't forgiven you?

am confused...

can i just ask, what experience have you had with witchcraft and why did you feel the need to protect yourself from it? (if i understood you correctly?). i do not feel like i need to be protected from christianity. it is just my choice not to believe in it, but i do not think it can do me any harm.

[shadowoutcast]

Forgiveness form God is absolute, when asked for forgiveness it is received in abundence by the grace of his son. The otherside to the tail is the if we have been Forgiven by God, it not that I doubt that he has forgiven me, I doubt if I've forgiven myself. through life we get hurt and sometime unintentionally we hurt other people. When I pray about it (yes, I do pray mostly at night) I not only ask God for forgiveness I ask that my heart and soul now that I have been forgiven and the problem is no longer mine... which is easier said then done.

Hmm confusion stil on the concept of sin... well sorry but I don't know how to explain it more this is probly because I don't see it as a concept I see it as a reality.

Witchcraft is an art or skill that is considered 'pagen'. I can't find it but the bible discribes briefly why witchcraft should be avoided. I've had a few non christain friends using a pack of cards to 'talk' to someone who had past away. At first there was nothing, I didn't think there was anything wrong with what they where doing (as I was on the playstation ) but after sometime I felt it. A strange dark stillness slowly surrounding where they where. I have no idea what it was but it was not good.

Must also say that even if you mention that there are White and Black, areas most of it uses the same methods in both areas. ie Your intension might be good but can have conserquineces.

meh... I may never get through, not that I've given up, it just hard to discribe and understand. I can only try into explaining my experience within the power of God and Christ and the Holy Sprit. It's a shame that you haven't experienced it for yourself, but I will try answering anymore questions you may have.

[MajiKat]

Thanks for your repsonse SO.

firstly, let me explain what witchcraft actually is. forget what you have seen on TV or in movies. forget what your friends did with cards. that is not witchcraft - that is part of occultism, and is very different. I use Tarot cards, but only in relation to myself. you never ever use cards or do a reading for another person without their permission.

okay, so witchcraft can be described as a mystery religion. what that means is the central aspects of witchcraft are a mystery. you cannot experience true witchcraft without being a witch. one of the main aspects of witchcraft is discovering that we are part of nature, and learning how to respect and live in harmony with nature. witchcraft is about celebrating life here and now. there is a God (of nature - the masculinie element of life) and a Goddess (the feminine and also of nature). it is really hard to explain the ins and outs of witchcraft, becuase there really are not many rules, except for 'if it harm none, do as you will'. to me, its about thinking before i act, being aware of the consequences and not being afraid to be myself in case i offend someone.

there is only one time of the year to contact the dead, and that is Samhain. it is the old name for Halloween, or All Hallows Eve, and has nothing to do with trick and treats, etc. Samhain is the night when the veils between the worlds are the thinnest (this world and the next) so you can send messages to loved ones who have died. on Samhain, i simply light a candle, and think about loved ones who have pased on, sending them my thoughts and my wishes for them to be happy, wherever they are.

there are many festivals in the witches calender, and they all relate to the seasons, the stars (we celebrate the vernal equinoxes) and some are harvest festivals, which i celebrate even though i am not a farmer. on those nights, i send positive energy to those who are farmers, like my dad, and make a small offering of food to bless the crops. even if we buy our bread in a plastic bag, it still has to come from the earth.

the seasonal festiivals are all about celebrating and acknowledging a change in energy. at midsummer - Chrtismas in the southern hemisphere - energy changes from male to female, ready for the onset of winter. the dead months, autumn and winter, are the Goddess's time. it is She who lays a frosty blanket across the earth. from the winter solstice - mid winter- the energy changes to the masculine - and it is the God's time. the God of nature owns the green months - spring and summer. he represents new growth and sunshine, and the Goddess represents silence and reflection - winter.

i know that this time of the year, when the GOd is walking the earth, i am feeling alive, energised, ready to jump into things. that is his energy. during winter, i am still, resting, happy to go through one day at a time. this is GOddess. she teaches us to take time out, to chill out, to rest and think about things, ready to be reborn again at Midsummer.

that is a breif, very brief, overview of one of the aspects of witchcraft. you should read some more. its interesting stuff.

the point is, the first witches lived with the land. they understood the seasons, nature, and all She had to offer. they were healers, midwives, farmers. they were not evil. they did not worship the devil (we don't have a devil or anything that corresponds to him. the old christian church took our horner God - the god of nature who is half man half goat or sheep - and turned him into the devil). witches believe in balance, and the good and the bad that is in all of us.

being a witch, for me, is about knowing myself. if i cannot know myself, i cannot know the Goddess and the God. its about balance - like i said above - and about being able to acknowledge and hold that balance within yourself. its about the strength and power that comes with acknowledging who you really are, warts and all. today, i can look at my relfection and see my Self in it.

when i was a christian, i couldn't do that. i couldn't look truely at myself for fear of seeing my sins, for the fear of going to hell. i was tired of being scared and angry at myself. i was tired of denying myself the chance to simply be me. Christianity taught me to me afraid of myself; being a witch has taught me to love, respect and acknowledge myself as a less-than-perfect creature. i am flawed, but i know that it is not a sin to be that way.

being a witch is about realising that i am an intricle part of the living, breathing world. that my actions now will enact consequecnes now.

what your friends were doing was not witchcraft. they were working with forces they didn't understand, and that is why you were left with a dark and unpleasant feeling about it. i would have to. i wouldn't dare call on the dead, and i have been studying witchcraft for 10 years. i am not ready to do it, and i don't know if i woud ever want to. sending a message at Samhain is harmless, so long as it is a message of love and compassion. the lore love you send into the world, the more you get back.

i have experienced God before. i was on a Christian youth camp when i was about 14. we were sitting outside in the bush singing and reading the bible (i think we were reading Matthews gospel). anyway, i was sitting on this granite rock, when suddenly i became aware of everything natural around me. the sun, the birds, the trees, the rock itself. i felt the energy of that place flow through my body, from my feet, which were planted on the ground (i had no shoes on). the energy felt green. Alive. but the image that flashed into my mind that day was of a laughing, green man dressed in leaves. It was not the Christian God that spoke to me that day. It was the God of nature. i think that was the moment when i realised, listening to the words of Matthew, that i was on the wrong path. i went back to camp the following year, but the feeling of being in the wrong place, for me, was even stronger. and i have never been to church again (except for one wedding) or picked up a bible again since that year. i could not deny a feeling that strong.

so, unfortunaltley, SO, your God has never spoken to me. and i tried hard to hear him for a long time. but it just wasn't right, something in me was pulling in another direction. but i don't feel sad for it. i feel glad and blessed that the land choose me instead.

blessed be

[shadowoutcast]

becauses I'm tired I can't answer with my full brain on and functioning at the moment so this will likely make no sence.

(No movies involed in experience, and I don't watch all that much TV, I just know what I've had happend. I also have support in this field.)

From my experiences I've had with the Trinity (this is in fact the 'God' of Christianity) most of the 'connection' you felt came from silence. I don't so it offen but I've found silence more rewarding in my groth in faith. To quite Rob Bell the creator of the NOOMA seires yeah he is talking about Eliljah as what he heard on the mountain and explained that the voice of God was found in the sound of silence(closest diffinition from hebrew. Writen as 'wisper' in English). 1 Kings 19:9-13

Although I have experienced a highed sence for the presence of the Holy Sprit at a PlanetShakers conference - there we also had a guy burst into a fit of rage during a extream worship seasion. He lifed a long pew over his head while having five guys holding him down, yeah to be done by anyone with muscle but he was more of a frail build - But the voice of God, I've found is only experienced in silence, nothing, zip, no music or anything that buzzes or hums. Other than that is can be something else, such as emotion or the reation of the Holy Sprit within the act of Worship.

Or to turn things to a 'point the finger' view it maybe the otherside of the spritual war (not of humans), for no matter what form of craft you do it is disapproved by the bible and God, main reason is that God is jealous and want us for himself. Don't worship any other god. God - his name is The-Jealous-One - is a jealous God. Exodus 34:14 MSG

Like I also quoted before, not the you believe in this side but you did say you believe in balance so hear is the 'Dark Side' (yes I like Star Wars) of the Christain faith. "The devil's greatest trick was to tell the world that he don't exist." or from the bible. (Jesus said) 'The Thief purpose is to steal, kill and distroy. My purpose id to give them a rich and satisfying life.' John 10:10 NLT

Also note: I'm not trying to say YOUR WRONG FOR I SAY SO, SO THERE <- that would be judgement of the path you have chosen. Judgement is the responsablity of the Father and the Son. But to explain I'll quote Morpheos from The Matrix "I can only show you the door Neo. You are the one who choses to walk through it." (damn I love The Matrix)

[MajiKat]

but, and this is the bit i have been trying to explain, i do not believe in the devil. to me, he or she does not exist. its not a matter of the devil tricking me into believeing he is not there, he simply isn't. the thing i have always felt about the devil, is that he is a scare tactic, like the boogeyman or the monster under the bed (not trying to trivalise what you believe, so please don't think that!) put there to make us afraid of the bad things, or of temptation, or whatever.

i think i will leave this conversation SO. we are going round in cicles. all i want to say is that i respect your beliefs, i do not and never will share them, and i hope that you can some day develop a clearer understanding of what the Craft is all about. don't let a bad experience scare you. i'm not trying to convert you or anything - that is not what the Craft is about - each to their own. i hope that one day, everyone will see that its not a bad thing, its just different. witches have been persecuted for centuries, and i'm hoping one day we can openly say this is what we believe in and not be treated with suspicion or distaste (you didn't do that, and i thank you for it).

whether we worship one God or Goddess or many, we are still connecting to something that is bigger than us, for whatever purpose we see in that connection. i hope your faith brings you peace, as mine does me. maybe one day the GOddess will touch your life and you will say ,'oh thats what that crazy chick was on about!'


blessed be

[shadowoutcast]

Thanks for the chat about it anyway, for I'm a sucker for theolgical debate. I wasn't saying that you have to believe in my view, I was stating that there are always to sides to any belief, and if there is and ablsolute for one there is always another at the opposite end. My experiences are fair strong and come in strength with my 'sword' and 'armor' (that concept is explain in Acts somewhere) and I won't be swayed, just like your own.

But I will say the devil is no scare tactic (yet by some Church it is used to that extream), I have clearly seen/fell/fought in a sprital battle and have come out with scars which allow me to openly shear action over words to one of the lost (sheep term, used offen in parables). Think about this: If the devil had tricked you into believing in some other than God(of which you said you did but weren't to sure)how would you know? I'm not saying he did or didn't I'm making you ponder (for I love to ponder).

Over time I hope that you might look more into many Faiths (trust me I have researched the history into 'The Craft' and looked in to some of it before I found Faith, and know what it is, which is more to what you discribled) and that you questions may be answered by someone for qualified then I.

Thanks once again.

And for a starter Bible I recomend read the Gosples with The Message by Eugene Peterson (its a paraphrase in modern terms that makes more sence)

TO ARVA: Yes it says God made the whole universe but since he placed his creation on Earth that is where the focus is.First this: God created the Heavens and the Earth - all you see, all you don't see Genesis 1:1 How did he create it from nothing? Well is wasn't really nothing it was more made from his word and will.

NOTE: I've said it before in other post but will say it again. I don't follow a Religion - I have a personal Faith of which I have experienced and no other, that what connects me to others Christains is that we have the same personal Savior, Jesus Christ. It might be strange to hear it like that but that is how I trust it to be, for just knowing and/or believing in God is not enough, for even the devil believes in God... think about it.

[Dark One]

I read Mystery Kats post with interest. I have a few friends who are 'white' witches and what you said rings true.

Most ancient religions had more than one god. The Anglo-Saxons worshipped Cernnunos (commonly known as Herne), the Celt Horned God. He was the God of the Earth and of Love. Am i right in thinking that Manu was/is the witches equivalent?

I've been thinking that one good example of Witchcraft: In some of the Discworld books, Granny Weatherwax discusses Witchcraft with Archancellor Ridcully. She tells him the difference bewteen witches and wizards and states that they listen to the earth.

DSO: Why does the bible say that worshipping any other god than the Christian one is wrong? Many other religions tolerate Gods from other religions.

[shadowoutcast]

The verse in question (Exodus 34:14) is infact form the Old Testament, so that includes God from the Jewish point of view. The reason is that God is a jealous god, and rightfully so. If you placed your heart and sprit into a living work of 'art' why would you want it to forget about you and give something else that didn't create it reconition for all the work. God formed man out of dirt from the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life. The Man came alive - a living soul! Genesis 2:7 MSG. It says he created all things but he made us (humans) out of his own breath and image.

Currently the main focus on a another God is that of Science (of which sliently provide evidence of a creator over natural randomness) and material possesion (fashion, money, etc). It's not that we can't tolerate other views on faith, it that God gave us love first so that in worship we give his love back...might add that this is not a common answer for this question from other believers as I respect other beliefs. The common answer is more of a 'soapbox' stand of hell, fire and brimstone.

If you don't mind reading extreamly long forum debates Head here

[merryll]

I grew up a Catholic, because of my mother, and, haven't really made up my mind if I believe it all or if is a no choice thing.
I guess some things I agree with and some things I don't, but often I can't help thinking that the Catholic church has the wrong idea about some things, while others I agree with totally, so yeah, a bit forced upon, a bit i agree...
Merryll

[Kaylan-R]

I agree totally with you.
I've been christianed, recieved my first holy communion and everything and even though I've been 'named' a Catholic, I'm actually not.
I don't believe in God at all, though I believe in Jesus.
Does anyone know a Religion that follows that basic belief?[/color]

[Dark One]

Thanks for the reply DSO.

Isn't jealousy a sin though? I was taught (when i was little) that God created us to be free thinking and to follow whatever path lay before us

[shadowoutcast]

As far as my readings through the Bible go I haven't come across jealousy as a sin, although the Bible dosen't define what sin is in great detail. I guess it also depead of the reason, God is jealous for his desiered relationship with us... but if jealous is for the fact that someone has a better 'body' then you and your thought are 'bitter' about it then it goes against Biblical teachings and maybe difined as sin.

Also the fact that God want a personal relationship with us is still a chose, for I have made mine to follow the Trinity dosen't mean you are forced into the same belief although they force feed it all in private schools.

kaylanr said:

I agree totally with you.
I've been christianed, recieved my first holy communion and everything and even though I've been 'named' a Catholic, I'm actually not.
I don't believe in God at all, though I believe in Jesus.
Does anyone know a Religion that follows that basic belief?

Sorry but not sure what belief would follow that if any. As a Faith in Jesus is to have a belief in the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Sprit) for the is what God from a Christain understanding is a three-in-one God.

[merryll]

KKfK,
I must admit, I am confused. Jesus preached about God, so how can you believe in one, but not the other? as DSO said. Are you saying that you believe that he exsisted, and was a good person and such, but what he said about God, and the miracles that he so called preformed were made up or only his belief and not true?

And what I said before wasn't totally true, I believe in God I guess, sorta, but I also wonder, like someone mentioned earlier, if their was a God, who was so great, why would he care about us? Like most of us don't really care about ants, except when they eat our food or climb on us, and they share the planet with us, why would this supreme being care about our lives?

Yes, just a thought,

Merryll

[Aras]

I'm not anything, i would say i am closer to being atheist then anything. I am not a fan of religion in general although i believe in peoples right to have one and have that choice. I am happy with peoples religions as long as they do not try to enforce it on me. What i don't like it extremism.

Kindred Kay - Do you mean that you believe in Jesus as in his teachings. Not about god as such but about the ideals and messages behind them?

About god not caring, i would say it is different. Yes he is powerful but he made humans so it kind of a bond such as a parent to a child. i have no idea. i that is what i get from it but i could be very wrong, i don't follow the religion.

[~*~Neisha~*~]

I'm christian, and thats that really I believe that God is always with me and Jesus is my Saviour but I don't go to church much and I dont prayer much either. I just trust in the fact that God is there for me and wants me to do the right thing, and I dunno thats enough for me to get by I dont take the bible too literally because some of the stories seem to be a little too detailed for them to just be accounts of stories if u kno wat i mean...it sorta seems like the author has made parts up to fill in the gaps. So yeah thats just the way I interpret Christianity

Oh and as for the whole evolution thing, I think God might of designed it so that we would eventually come into being thru the whole evolution thing. Im not sure i believe in the story of Adam and Eve coz it seem spretty unrealistic that two people managed to populate an entire world. Then again, its hard to believe that the universe is so large and if the world was set at a different angle no life could exist, but apparently thats true...so yeah I just think u can never be sure *shrug*

As for DSO's comments about the devil, I kinda agree in some ways, like I have felt myself go thru a spiritual battle between good and evil but its usually just as I overcome difficulties with my life that I'm having or getting through boughts of depression or anxiety. I feel like there's an opposing force to the love of God and Jesus which we call the devil. I think u can be tempted sometimes to think negatively and hurt others emotionally or at the worse physically to let out this anger/negativity but if u truly believe in God and goodness then its not that hard to stay away from that sort of thing.