Religion

[Ashta]

shadowoutcast said:

2 creation stories? Give a reference and I'll help you understand. The Old testerment is a collection of in most cases name to the people who created them but some this the books are collections in themselves. The frist books, Gensis is part of the Five Books of Moses (which includes the next four after it) there was no chinese wispers involed read up on the history of the books it around somewhere.

Check the order of creation at the v. begining of Genesis... there is one account (off the top of my head) that says the world and nature etc were created and then man and woman, and then there is a second accoudt which says man was created then the world and stuff and then women.... Although I haven't studyed it for over a year...

Five books of Moses... Torah is correct term. The other sections of the OT are devided into Neviim and Ketuviim (Prophets and Writings). Sorry, I'm a useless walking fact book sometimes!

Shadow I'll send you some interesting info on possible evidence of redaction in the bible if you'd like. My old notes and stuff are at home, but I could get them to you later this week. They are by no means proof, but it's an interesting litereary critical look at the matter.

*grugs and chocolate to all*

[shadowoutcast]

ok I need verse as a reference I read the and study the bible as a hobby. I've read most of the old testiment and never found 2 creation acount. In the hebrew the 'Seven days of creation' is more like a poem giving the geist on how it happend, then going into more detail on what happen at the time of creating 'man'. It's not an considered now to be an account in itself (although hebrew scholers did make their calander out of it).

The other term for the five books of Moses(Gesesis to Deuteronomy) is the Pentateuch(meaning five) or the Books of Law the term Torah is 'Teachings' and although this is the correct term for it, it is know by the other names . Then you got the Historical Books (Joshua to Esther) Poetical Books (Job to Song of Songs) and then the Prophets Major and Minor (Isaiah to Malachi) and this is also the account of the Kings of Israil (1&2 Kings).

EDIT: I was wrong read up on it in wikipedia (a valid source I might add)


For other redaction or multiply accounts of events the best example of that is the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) But in anything to get the best understanding you need multiply account from different sources, that is why many of the parable are repeated and some accounts are smaller then others (Matthew being the longest and Mark being the shortest).

Within my family I'm know as the know it all and walking head of information I could give you some for I read this stuff and study it almost at some point once a day

[Cat-Eyes]

There are definately two creation stories in the bible. I, hovever, can't be bothered finding them. My bible's in the other room. Too much effort... Also, i don't know where my big bible is and the miniature one is only the New Testament and impossible to read. No, wait, I do know where the normal sized one is. But anyway, the point is, I can't be bothered looking.

Also, the guy who basically began the Protestant movement was Martin Luther. He wrote his 95 These about the Church, mostly on their Sale of Indulgences, and from that people decide to move away from the Church and form their own. He didn't go "Come on everybody, let's quit the Church" but he unintentionally began the whole protestant movement from which formed the Christian Denominations (such as Lutheran, Protestant, Church of England etc) Church of England is a bit different again, but still.

Man, I just wrote an essay on this guy, WHY am I talking about him on Ober?

Cat

[shadowoutcast]

did I say Martin Luther said "Come on everybody, let's quit the church."? meh i'll just sink my head somewhere no one can hear my words.

[Cat-Eyes]

I didn't say you did! Sorry if it came accross that way, i was just trying to make sure no one took what I was saying that he said that. (Did that sentence even make sence?)

Cat

[Timm]

I thought Martin Luther only created Lutheranism...

[Cat-Eyes]

Nope, they named Lutheran-ism or whatever you turn that into after him, and he was actually against that. He didn't want it named after him.

[lench]

agnostic here
i was brought up christian went to an all boys highschool(s) but i didnt really pay much attention in the compulsory religion classes
if there is a higher power so be it..
but if there isnt im not gonna be too surprised

[Rift]

I'm gonna have to agree with lench here. i think skool bored us out of religion (we went to same skool )

but as far as my father and grandparents are concerned, i'm a good Christian Boy

if only they knew me..

[Kaylan-R]

hmmm.....iF only they knew you like us.......



Okidokies...I'm a Catholic, but I don't believe in God, I dont believe he created the world, I'm not sure I believe in heaven, I believe in Jesus but I think my faith is withering as it was said that he dies for our sins. But isn't the world today just one big Sin??
I mean, come on people, the Apocolypse is comming!! 2021 people!!!!
I read godly stuff to get another persons perspective on the view of the world, but I don't actually follow it. I mean, I'm not in some kind of cult againt God, I just dont believe in him.
I actually Collect bibles and see if there are any differences. I've read the Jewish Bible, the Jehovas Wittness the Christian Bible, the Lutheran Bible and some other culty bible.

Hm....also on the topic of God, even though I dont believe in him, I dont have a total lact of respect for him. I mean, if people want to believe in him then that's their choice and I wont stop them. My friend is an Jehovas Wittness and she gave me a little pep talk about her beliefs and its so similar to mine. Does that mean I'm an JW?

Also, I haven't yet found a religion that fitted me personally and my beliefs. My fathers family is Irish Catholic and my Mothers family is protestant, but I've inherrited the Irish Catholicness - but I dont follow it on the same basic lines?
Am I still an Irish Catholic if I don't believe in God?

About Satan, even though I'm Gothic I don't believe in him. In the bible it says that Satan lurrd Adam and Eve away from God, it makes him bad, but what if he wasn't even there? bla bla bla
What I'm trying to say is that I haven't yet found a perfect religion for me yet. End of story.

Kay

[Wh|te Fyre]

hmmmmm, this is a really complex topic for me.

first of all, I'll say I have no religion. I don't believe in god, but I'm not totally against him.
Some people need something to believe in, their lives are so crappy they need to blame it on someone else and/or turn to someone devine for help.

Second of All, I used to be Wiccan/Pagan, but the whole belief in a god/ess was just too out of the ordinary for me.

I guess I'm just sick of so many people totally freaking out when I say I have no religion, like somehow you absolutely have to believe in a god to live, I've been non-believant for 13 years, look how I turned out.

I strongly believe that Old Testament was created to teach people morals, like the Turtle and The Hare, and The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
I have no opinion on the NT.

I am with Min (??) on the point that creating a race of people just to worship you is stupid, and not just a little pig headed.
and also how everything good is giving props to god, he created the world, so how did this random Devil appear, if he's not a multiple personality of god?

And no, I'm not just here to bad mouth religion. I am going to a Catholic school next year! Religions all in themselves have great pointers and morals, and some people just feel empty without something to believe in.

Closing my book,
Tegan,
this post concluded nothing at all

[Maeve]

I am an athiest for alot of reasons. none of them concerning scietific proof or anything, i don't like all that seeing is believing stuff that some athiests cling to, religion is about belief, and as far as i'm concerned it's what that belief does to you as a person that counts.
I have the upmost respect for alot of religious people but what i choose to do myself is to create my own morality. I like thinking about right and wrong and i would rather not have an external force dictating to me what is right and what is wrong. especially as this sort of mentality in alot of religions can be manipulated by religious leaders. Considering God himself doesn't come down and tell you what to do people start following a person instead, like a priest or the Pope.
there's this movie which my dad always talks about called the shoes of the fisherman, where this guy becomes pope and starts doing all these great things like actually helping countries in crisis with all their horrendous wealth (i've been to the vattican and it made me angry to see the hypocrisy of it all, to preach about Jesus and yet hoard all this wealth for yourself is evil!)
but this isn't always the case, i am very aware that religion can make people better purely because it teaches them charity and humbleness and all these good things. it's the institutionalizing of it all that i dislike.

i'm not sure if i'm making sense here

[Shadlez]

I'm amazed. There's no buddhists here?
Well I'm buddhist only via family tradition. I don't really have a set religion... it's a mish-mash of everything with the central theme of fate/destiny/balance/earth/life/gods/goddesses. Confused? Me too. I just say I'm buddhist to simplify things. Fond of this religion I am! I will believe in something, but I don't know what I believe in. Well, my fav saying is "to believe in everything you must believe in nothing". *shrugs* So long as I don't hurt/disturb/inconvience others, it's perfectly fine. But, that's actually surprisingly restrictive.

[shadowoutcast]

he he athiests, not that I have anything against athiest for it's not my place to judge (that just nieve). I just find it strange (from my perpective) how they can justify absolute right or wrong, when they only have there own experiences in life to judge it from. From a phycoligical perpective that human mind is flawed in its judgement of right or wrong when depending on a personal experience. So have the able to therefore justify your own 'moral code' with only experience to back it up you find you lead back to that same problem. Human experience. Mind you though we are all human (believers and non-believers) so we are all flawed in the judgement of right or wrong.

[susan007]

Wow looks like I stepped into a hotly debated topic here...
In case people are curious, I picked the "Christian" box...

I'm not going to sit here and write down all the stuff about Christianity here, it'll take too long, as everyone has an opinion/issue as far as this is concerned, I find.
The best way would be for me to meet every single one of you one-on-one so that I can answer all your questions, and I can ask you questions, and have a proper conversation!
But that's not possible! LOL...

Anyhoo, there seemed to be a number of people who were brought up in a Christian setting or went to a Christian school and was put off forever...

Well, I'll apologise on behalf of the people that represented Christianity to you.
It so happens, that even people with the best of intentions can sometimes cause a lot of harm.

As for me, I was brought up in a Christian family, so I grew up going to church.
But that doesn't make me a Christian - that makes me a churchgoer... An important distinction.

A time came for me in my teenage years to confront the fact that I wasn't really a Christian.
I did, I thought it through. I investigated Christianity very thoroughly, weighed it's truthfulness carefully before making a committed decision. So yeah, I 'rechose' Christianity...

[Maeve]

shadowoutcast said:

he he athiests, not that I have anything against athiest for it's not my place to judge (that just nieve). I just find it strange (from my perpective) how they can justify absolute right or wrong, when they only have there own experiences in life to judge it from. From a phycoligical perpective that human mind is flawed in its judgement of right or wrong when depending on a personal experience. So have the able to therefore justify your own 'moral code' with only experience to back it up you find you lead back to that same problem. Human experience. Mind you though we are all human (believers and non-believers) so we are all flawed in the judgement of right or wrong.

If that comment was targeted at me shadow outcast i should probably clarify.
My own personal morality is by no means absolute. I do not believe i am right in every situation or that i have the abilities to make decisions for the rest of humanity (this is where the flaw in humanity is entirely relevant- because one person is not capable of judging what is right for everyone). But if you think about it very few people are ever in that position of responsability, most only haveto deal with issues concerning thesmelves, so yeah, they have every right to draw on their own individual beliefs of what is right and wrong.
I have always found religions too constricting in this sense. If you follow the Bible you are following (essentially) a rule book, i think ethics is way too complicated and has rules that can be broken so as i said i would rather look at things individually, but that's just the philosopher in me.

[Lauren Hedgehog]

I went to a Catholic girls school but it seems to have been a lot more liberal than a lot of the schools some of you went to. We were taught to question everything, that if God wanted mindless worshipers it wouldn've given us reason - the Bible as it is today was put together by a council (~500?) years after Jesus's death. So the only stories in the New Testament are the ones that that group of people saw as being 'truth' but what makes any of the other accounts less true? Passages have also been added- since the style of phrasing for the bit about going out and converting everyone is different to the rest of Matthew's? account we were taught that it was likely that it was one of the ones added in later.


'If you follow the Bible you are following (essentially) a rule book, i think ethics is way too complicated and has rules that can be broken so as i said i would rather look at things individually' Maeve

that's what I was taught at school- rules can't take into account every single situation that can possibly arise. Sometimes you have to use the thought behind the rule - and not stick to the rules as written. The world is full of grey ethical issues - not wrong and right. If there was a clear distinction between wrong and right it wouldn't be an ethical issue. I prefer to make those kinds of decisions based on the concepts that I value (eg. justice, life, loyalty etc.) than on the written 'rules' of the Bible.

And after all that I'm not even sure if I believe in God - sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. I do believe in a lot of the basic values in the Bible though. I don't believe in the infallibility of the Church and the Pope - they're just as human as the rest of us, and just as able to make mistakes.

[Shadlez]

No... I think the only reason people are hesitant about Christianity is the bloody history and the lies that surround it. Everyone knows in the past Christianity and God seems to have the largest amount of agressors in any religion found on earth. Not to say that it's bad, only that people abused it, and now the religion is held rather skeptically by more and more.

And I also think it's rather sad that Jesus had to sacrifice himself in a such a violent way. Anything forged in blood and hate cannot come to a good end is what I think...

Right or wrong, good or evil, ethics and morals, all are rather silly notions thought up by people to complicate things. Basically all that can be summed in three words: "Don't bother others."
Don't kill me... I merely said what I thought. It's not aimed at anyone here! 0_0;

[LinJa]

shadelz said:

And I also think it's rather sad that Jesus had to sacrifice himself in a such a violent way. Anything forged in blood and hate cannot come to a good end is what I think...

If Jesus Christ did not sacrifice Himself for us, the Human Race would be doomed ( ;D ) but with JC we HAVE a hope and future with Him only if we accept and acknowlege what He did for us. It is the Ultimate Sacrifice. "The wages of Sin is Death". Either we die and remain dead forever. Or by the grace of God, we have hope and eternal life with Him thro' Jesus Christ.

susan007 said:

Well, I'll apologise on behalf of the people that represented Christianity to you.
It so happens, that even people with the best of intentions can sometimes cause a lot of harm.

Hear Hear !! ^_^

As you can see, I'm have a strong faith in my belief (no surprise I ticked Christianity) ^_^

Whether people believe in God or not does not change the fact that He DOES exist. You can be cuckoo (not calling anyone one ^_^) and deny the existence of air, but it doesn't change the fact that it DOES exist.
God gave us all free will (the freedom to choose) so He will not drag anyone kicking and screaming into Heaven.
Be free to believe in what you'd like, but be warned! heh heh heh
There is only One Truth and One Way ^_^ --> JESUS CHRIST!!
I would dearly like to convince you, but I cannot force you...

If anyone has any doubts, Just pray and ask God to reveal Himself to you in some way .. Be earnest, and He will show you.

P.S. Altho there're maybe alot of dominations etc (they just place certain things in emphasis) the main and most Important thing is that because God loves us so much, He became man, and died on the cross for us, conquered death and gave us Salvation.

I can go on forever and try to answer everyone's questions but that'll take forever =)

Have a blessed day everyone! I hope I haven't given anyone a heachache =T

Toorah!

[MajiKat]

this is an interesting topic. i will not say that i am religous, becasuse the word religion to me conjurs up images of organised worship. i know thats not what it is, but as i practice my spirituality alone, that is what i feel. i ticked the 'other' option, but i identify with pagan/witch. i did not choose wicca because that is different from witchcraft. very often they are griouped together, but where wicca is more concerned with rituals and tools and costumes, witchcraft is more of a sense, a feeling of connection, an appreciation of what we see and feel around us. i believe in the goddess as the mother and nurturer of the earth and all that in it. She is the feminine aspect of life, and the God, the horned God, is the masculine. Life needs both of these energies to exist, all life. i believe in the power of nature - who can watch a storm, or the waves breaking on the beach, the new growth of Spring, the sybtle change of Autumn, and not feel connected to that? sometimes, living in a city makes it hard, but i have a garden, i care for and respect all life, i eat oragnic food, i do not eat meat, i barely drive my car. I guess what i am saying is that, to me, paganism is more of a consciousness, an awareness of life, the seasons of life and death and the never-ending cycle of it all. its beautiful.

i do not do the ritual thing. i celebrate the change of the seasons, the phases of the moon and the energy that comes with each turn of the wheel of life, but i do not invoke deities. i do not cast spells. i do not have a cauldron or a wand. its funny - my cousin is a wiccan high priest, and although we believe in the same things, our approach to those things is what makes our chosen paths different.

this is not a path i chose lightly. i did a lot of soul searching before i came to this. i think in a way i born to it. my parents are not religious- my father hates organised religion, and if i was to label him, i'd say he was a pagan. he lives with, respects and works with nature - he is farmer, his life and his trade are ruled by the seasons, by nature and all that She is. but i do not tell him that. my mother was brought up in the Anglican church. my siblings and i are all christened, i was confirmed in the christian church, i went to camps, the church, to youth group, was involved in the whole culture of that religion. but no matter how much i learnt, i always had more quesitons than i did answers. and Christianity could not answer those questions for me.

as a child, i grew up free and happy in the bush. i saw the life and death cycle more times than i can count, and came to respect it. death is not a bad thing - it is a naturally occuring part of life. i know that sometimes death comes when it is least expected, and in terrible circumstances, but life should be celebrated and death should not be feared.

witches do not believe in heaven or hell. we do not worship the devil - i just wanted to state that. so often my beliefs are misunderstood.

so i guess what i really believe in is the beauty of life, in all its ugliness. i believe in the masculine and feminine forces that shape our lives and the world we live in. i believe in the power of nature, of the seasons, the cycle of energy that comes with being alive. the Goddess is important to me, because she is visible every day. i guess that is what some faiths say about God. i think, as a woman, i felt more of a connection to a faith that honours and respects the feminine energy of life. i believe in living in harmony with all life. and that is what witchcraft offers me - a way to do that, without having your own personal beliefs comprimised. there is only one main rule of witchcraft - do as to others as you would have done to you, or 'ever mind the rule of three, three times thou givest returns to thee, this lesson well, thou must learn, thy only gets what thou dost earn'. in other words, we pay for our mistakes and our negaivity in THIS life, not the next. hence, be a good person.

here endeth the lesson!

[Shadlez]

*agrees with Mysteri Kat*
I agree... I don't enjoy the idea of organised religion. I'm sure the human race needs them, but it's not for me.

Also I think that we should accept everything and every religion, not just that our god or goddess is the right one. There's no such thing as a right god/goddess. In the end it's still the same forces right? It's people who classify the forces according to their own definitions and such. I prefer to only refer to the forces of breaking and attraction, as well as a less definable sense of fate/destiny/coincidence. As to deities... I think much like the pagans, there being both a female force and male force. Or at the very least a both-gender one. I think... to give names to such forces makes it seem overly humanised and no longer that powerful force above us.

Like Kat said, "ever mind the rule of three, three times thou givest returns to thee, this lesson well, thou must learn, thy only gets what thou dost earn".
If you look closely at the world around you, you realise that everything is founded on balance, you can't take more than you give, no more can you give more than you take. If you do, it'll come back somehow, perhaps in ways you can't even imagine.

X3

[Dark One]

linja said:

Whether people believe in God or not does not change the fact that He DOES exist. You can be cuckoo (not calling anyone one ^_^) and deny the existence of air, but it doesn't change the fact that it DOES exist.

But just because you believe in something it doesn't necessarily mean it exists. I'm not knocking your beliefs, but i'm just trying to say that i would probably want proof if i believed in something strongly enough

[Maeve]

mysterikat said:

this is an interesting topic. i will not say that i am religous, becasuse the word religion to me conjurs up images of organised worship. i know thats not what it is, but as i practice my spirituality alone, that is what i feel. i ticked the 'other' option, but i identify with pagan/witch. i did not choose wicca because that is different from witchcraft. very often they are griouped together, but where wicca is more concerned with rituals and tools and costumes, witchcraft is more of a sense, a feeling of connection, an appreciation of what we see and feel around us. i believe in the goddess as the mother and nurturer of the earth and all that in it. She is the feminine aspect of life, and the God, the horned God, is the masculine. Life needs both of these energies to exist, all life. i believe in the power of nature - who can watch a storm, or the waves breaking on the beach, the new growth of Spring, the sybtle change of Autumn, and not feel connected to that? sometimes, living in a city makes it hard, but i have a garden, i care for and respect all life, i eat oragnic food, i do not eat meat, i barely drive my car. I guess what i am saying is that, to me, paganism is more of a consciousness, an awareness of life, the seasons of life and death and the never-ending cycle of it all. its beautiful.

so i guess what i really believe in is the beauty of life, in all its ugliness. i believe in the masculine and feminine forces that shape our lives and the world we live in. i believe in the power of nature, of the seasons, the cycle of energy that comes with being alive. the Goddess is important to me, because she is visible every day. i guess that is what some faiths say about God. i think, as a woman, i felt more of a connection to a faith that honours and respects the feminine energy of life. i believe in living in harmony with all life. and that is what witchcraft offers me - a way to do that, without having your own personal beliefs comprimised. there is only one main rule of witchcraft - do as to others as you would have done to you, or 'ever mind the rule of three, three times thou givest returns to thee, this lesson well, thou must learn, thy only gets what thou dost earn'. in other words, we pay for our mistakes and our negaivity in THIS life, not the next. hence, be a good person.

here endeth the lesson!

I do all that you mention (eat organic food, no meat, i don't have a car!) but despite that i'm too cynical to believe in any correlation between humans and nature, i see us as being too alien to ever really properly respect it (as a species) and i can't ignore the ugliness, that's why i'm still athiest.
I reckon your beliefs are wonderful though

[LinJa]

jgduffin said:

But just because you believe in something it doesn't necessarily mean it exists. I'm not knocking your beliefs, but i'm just trying to say that i would probably want proof if i believed in something strongly enough

Yes, you are absolutely right. I would want proof too! ^_^ It's not all about blind faith for me, I have studied it, still studying it, finding out plenty about it, finding other paths and seeing the value in it, the truthfulness in it, and I am convince (thro many experiences) that Jesus Christ is the way. There is plenty of evidence around. Historically, Geographically, (Eh, are these even words? haha, they sound ok to me!) ^_^

Have a read of this:
The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus By Lee Strobel

Note: this guy totally did not believe in Jesus, He was actually trying to find evidence that Jesus Christ (and anything associated with Him) DOESN'T exist. Thro' the investigations, he did a 180 tho'. ^_^

[MajiKat]

maeve said:

I do all that you mention (eat organic food, no meat, i don't have a car!) but despite that i'm too cynical to believe in any correlation between humans and nature, i see us as being too alien to ever really properly respect it (as a species) and i can't ignore the ugliness, that's why i'm still athiest.
I reckon your beliefs are wonderful though

Thanks Maeve like i said, its taken me a long time to come to my beliefs, and i am still reluctant to label myself, but wtch is the closest i can get.

i think that, over time, we as a species have lost that connection to nature. the changes that the world and our (western) society went through, like modernism and the industrial revolution, kind of killed that connection. we live out of touch with nature now, we have electrical lighting, fast food, etc. we do not need to rely on Her so much anymore. its hard to maintian that conneciton, but i try to go outside everyday, to watch the birds, watch the sky, and spend time in my garden (i'm growing my own food - well as much as i can given the small space i have - my dream is to have enough land to grow a huge market garden so i do not have to buy any fresh produce from shops).

i love to be outside at night in my garden. its really quite where i live - not alot of traffic noise - and you can hear bats, birds - owls at the moment - bandicoots and other small critters moving about. sometimes the bandicoots freak me out - they make such a threatening sound, like they do not want me to be there near them, so i just retreat to the back steps - back to the 'human' part of my yard.

another thing that drew me to witchcraft/paganism is my celtic heritage. something about that time in history, the landscape of the british isles, the mysticism, it draws me, deep inside, and i cannot explain the connection any other way than it is ancestral.