Religion

[~Ethereal~]

Well, I was never really in the broom closet. When I was a child I went through a huge spiritual quest learnign everythign I could about religion and searching for what was right for me. It jsut developed fairly naturally in bits and pieces until one day I realised 'you know what, I'm a witch." But that was still when I was young - 11ish.
My mother (who is Anglican)has always been fine with it. She raised my sister and I to find our own paths and follow them. She encouraged me to learn and experience everythign I could. But my sister has always had a problem. SHe wavers between considering it an amusing diversion for me to beign sure I'm running around cursing people and playign with 'black magic' (and don't get me started on that rant I mostly jsut try and avoid the topic with her.

All of my frineds have always been fine. They see it as jsut another part of me - which is what it is. I can't separate Eth the person from Eth the witch. So it stands to reason that if they liek Eth the person, they also like Eth the witch. Reactions at uni have differed, becuase of the course I did. But my boy, Sam, who is in the same course is amazingly interested in everything to do with my path. He has the interestign position of knowing some of the history and theory, because of our classes, but not knowing how the practices work in day to day, so he's always askign questions.

I've read Gardner's works. I'm lucky that because of uni I've been able to do alot of witchy study and pass it off as uni work, but I've always been academically minded, so I involve a lot of research in my path.
I agree that Gardner's works are a bit weird. He, like Crowley, were heavily influenced by The Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn, so it's only natural that there would be mass amounts of Ceremonial Magic in his practice. His works have always seemed liek a very forced mix of Ceremonial magic and traditional witchcraft practices. It's never seemed quite right to me. But the works of those he taught are a little more natural in my opinion.

I've discovered a lot of books over the years that have rung true for me, or at least, many parts of them have rung true. It's usually teh more obsucre ones that work for me. I have some issues with many of the mainstream books.

Anyway I've rambled way too much and Sam has arrived requesting my attention. Talk to ya soon.

[MajiKat]

Parts of that story are so similiar to my own. Like i mentioned, i was christianed into the Anglican church (as i think everyone was back then ) and was Confirmed at about 12 or something, but to be honest, i was never really into it that much. it almost felt like there was something missing. i never connected with the bible at all - i did try, but it never worked for me. i grew up in the bush, so i used to spend alot of time in nature. i could always tell when rain was coming, when spring was coming - just by opening myself to it (its all smell). My dad is a farmer - he never wears a watch, so he taught me to tell the time using natural signs - the position of the sun, the length of the shadows etc (thats why we both hate daylight savings - it messes us up! i do not have a watch and haven't had one for about 10 years now). i have been around nature and been witness to the cycles of life, death and rebirth my entire life, most prevalent in my childhood, and i think something about the beauty of such things stuck with me.

but the time i realised i was a witch...funnily enough, i was on a scripture camp in year 8. we were all sitting out in the bush singing, and i just tuned out i guess. i was sitting on this amazing granite slab, and, i dunno, something went off inside me, and i was totally aware of everything around me - sounds, smells, everything. i rememve thinking it was the most comfortable i had been for a long time. when i told my minister about my experience, he said that god was with me. well, i agreed, but i didn't think it was his god (who to me had always seemed distant from me, never a part of me) - it was something else, and i also knew then that i didn't believe in the christian god anymore. but at that stage, i had no name for what i felt or what i was beginning to believe.

so i researched. and researched...the internet wasn't around for me in those days so i checked out some books from the library, and thats when i really began, in earnest, to walk the path. and i'm still walking. slowly. and its beautiful to feel so connected to life in all its forms and all its manifestations...although i am about to start waging a war on these bees that have decided to build a nest at my back door...they are getting aggressive and its scary! but i realise that they are just bees and that is what they do and i have to live with it, because i am the intruder.

we have a real magical thing happening at our place at the moment. a couple of rosellas have nested in the wall cavity in our kitchen. a pipe has been removed at some stage, so there is a perfect circle on the outside, so they have made a nest. there is a hole in the back of the kitchen cupboard (we had to block it up as the chicks got bigger) but we can move it and see them! they are soooo beautiful! they sing and chat all day, and mum and dad come and feed them and call to them. they probably have another three weeks or so in the nest before they go, then we will block the hole up and put up a nesting box so they come back next season. its just so magical - i have birds in my cupboard, and i love it! its awesome! my cats on the other hand....we have had to tie the cupboard doors up so they cannot get in and find themselves a feathery snack...

but yeah, i love things like that! being in suburbia now, i miss the bush, but i always have a garden and try and plant things that will attract birds and lizards . i have a big old gnarly bluey hanging about at the moment, and a magpie that struts about like he owns the place - he is not scared of us at all! he sits on the verandah and yells at the cats - its cool!

anyways, talk soon!
Blessings
MK

[had]

I was raised Catholic, mostly by my mother. Dad's an atheist, but he never really talks much about religion. Mum didn't either - she just took me to church every sunday, pretty much. I was in Christian schools all my life, too - Catholic for most of it.

I went through the basic sacraments - up to First Communion - but I didn't really believe. I was just too young to have any beliefs. I sort of went along because that's what you did.

Around about year 8ish, I started thinking about things, and any sort of religion just dropped out. It didn't make any sense to me, at all, so I dropped it. I hadn't been going to church for quite a while, either. That stopped back in about year 5 or so - no particular reason, Mum just stopped going. Except for Christmas and Easter. Recently, we've stopped doing even that.

So, yeah. I've really never had any kind of faith, and I find it distinctly strange. Mum still believes, although she's closer to a deist then a Catholic. When her sister died of cancer, it really shook her up a lot. That certainly provoked a few philosophical shifts.

[Swallow]

I'm sorry to hear about your sister, Had, that must have been terrible for you. Must still be terrible. *grugs*

Well, my father's Angelican, my mother is Presbyterian, i was baptised Church of England, and I went to a Catholic All-Girls school for two years (9-10, i was 15 to 16-years old). My good friends have spanned from Catholics to Budhists, from Muslims (Shi-a's AND Sunni's) to Hindus and the odd Wiccan/Witch, and i've always bugged the hell out of them when it comes to questions. I'm fascinated by religion, always have been. But when it comes to my own, i've had to settle on the side of Agnostic.

The direct translation of Agnostic is "Without Knowledge" but I don't think this really fits me, as it's not the fact that i'm missing the knowledge or i don't care about religion, it's just that i think too much about religion and have yet to make up my mind. But then, that still doesn't explain what's going on in my brain. I don't think i'm ever going to make up my mind and 'choose' a religion. I'm not happy with my faith, but i know it's there. I believe in God, i do. I believe in Science. I believe that there was a man called Jesus, and that he said a lot of remarkable things that we should take into our hearts, but i don't believe he was the son of God, not in the literal sense. Why can't we think that someone so amazing who said such beautiful things, who dearly wanted to make the world a better place and gave his life to do so, could not be entirely human?

I love the stories in the Bible, and i love the story of the Bible, and how it has changed and morphed over time. That's the history lover in me coming out. The ways the Bible was moved about and the changes are themes that crop up in a lot of my stories i'm so fascinated by it.

But do i believe it? Not in the book, no. There is a lot of good sense in there, and it has helped a lot of people, and i hope it continues to do so, but it's not for me. I do not like the idea of people placing their faith in an object. I have always thought faith was something bigger then that. And i feel that holding a religion up through one object makes it easy for people to be manipulated, as has been done, and i could argue, is being done.

I don't believe in Hell. I would like to, but then i can't help but think that every act you do then becomes selfish and purely a reason for you to escape such a doom. I would like to believe it because i think there are some truly evil people out there who will never be punished while they are alive. But then i don't think we'll be rewarded when we're dead... i haven't exactly made my mind up on that yet. If i was so set in my ways, i think i would lose the interest in studying religion and would stop.

So what do i believe, after all that? I do believe in a higher power, but i'm very much for the concept of let live. Faith is a beautiful thing, understanding is wonderous, to want to be selfless, and to be selfless, is a power onto itself and so far from weakness. So i'm glad we're all here trying to understand one another. And i hope we keep this all up, and more people can ramble away like i am, and we can all learn a little, understand a little, and maybe make some kind of change this way. Which is better than what everyone else is doing, and throwing rocks at what they don't understand. Or worse yet, bombs. :S

*grugs all round*

well, don't we all feel warm and fuzzy now

[Dark One]

Etheral & Kat: Do all wiccans have an 'earth' religion, believing in Herne, Manu, Gaia, etc, or is it only certain branches of witchcraft that follow them?

[Roland]

flit said:

Well, my father's Angelican, my mother is Presbyterian, i was baptised Church of England, and I went to a Catholic All-Girls school for two years (9-10, i was 15 to 16-years old).

Dude you were baptised into the Uniting Church of Australia *rolls eyes*

_{Oh and yes, in case you didn't know, Flitness is my little sister}

[Swallow]

Yeah, i know, i always forget and muddle them up *rolls eyes* i'm sodding useless

[Roland]

flit said:

Yeah, i know, i always forget and muddle them up *rolls eyes* i'm sodding useless

yes, yes you are. But it's ok, I still loves you

[had]

I'm sorry to hear about your sister, Had, that must have been terrible for you. Must still be terrible. *grugs*

Not my sister, my mum's sister. I've never had a sister.

[Fuil Dearg]

i was raised as a catholic. i was taught catholicism in school. i went to mass on sundays. we had these religion books: they had in them Bible stories, stories that taught a religious lesson and religion questions. the religion questions were basic questions, facts if you like, about something in the Bible or something to do with catholicism. each question had an answer. we would recite these questions and their answers several times in order to learn them. we had to learn them by heart, as homework. i just went along with it and didn't think too much of it at the time. i think the way we were taught these questions and answers was not a good way to do it. reciting it like that meant i lost interest in the meaning of the words: instead i was just learning how to say a stream of words and that was the only point of it, so it lost it's original meaning, and therefore i think it lost its value. i remembered them but i seldom thought on them. we used to say the rosary at school every friday evening. it was nice.
when i was younger i used to pray. i liked praying. i don't have the same faith that i had back then. it is strange how that has changed so very much: there is such a contrast between those times.
sometimes i think that this life of mine is very much karmic and very much about learning.

[MajiKat]

fuildearg said:

reciting it like that meant i lost interest in the meaning of the words: instead i was just learning how to say a stream of words and that was the only point of it, so it lost it's original meaning, and therefore i think it lost its value. when i was younger i used to pray. i liked praying. i don't have the same faith that i had back then. it is strange how that has changed so very much: there is such a contrast between those times.

you know, thats kind of what happened to me and the bible. after learning passages and learning which passage sort of went with what, i did loose interest in it.

fuildearg said:

sometimes i think that this life of mine is very much karmic and very much about learning.

thats an awesome philosophy to have, and very much like my own. life is about lessons, and further more, its about what you do with the knowledge you gain from those lessons.

DO - i can answer for myself personally, because i don't actually know alot of witches. I believe in not so much named deities, but in the quintessential feminine and masculine force - the goddess and the god. their primary connection with the world and wtih each other lies in the earth. the goddess is represented by the moon (among others - this is just one way to look at it) and the god by the sun. they are both the mother and father of life, and lovers. the god is also the son of the mother. the sun is the consort of the moon. its a really beautiful cyclical representation - for half the year (winter) the goddess moon rules over life, and in the warmer months, it is the sun god's time. so during summer the god and the goddess are lovers. at the beginning of winter, the god 'dies' and disappears from the earth, while come the beginning of summer, he is reborn again as the Son of the Mother Goddess. life, death, rebirth. Meh, its really hard to explain - i hope that makes some kind of sense

so i tend not to give them names. i don't know about others though.

MK

[Fuil Dearg]

we used to learn to say our prayers in gaelic as well as in english. i can say some of the Our Father in Gaelic still though i'v forgotten pieces of it. I don't know what many of the words mean and never have, I know the meanings of some of them, mostly from learning the language in school. We learnt them by heart but not the meaning of each word in particular. We just learned the words by heart and that was that. We were taught the Irish National Anthem too, I know words here and there and can hum or mutter bits of it where i dont know the words. This would not be unusual among Irish citizens. lol. I know what a few of the words mean too but most of them we were not taught in school.

MK, it really is just sometimes - i don't think about it that often and it isn't always the happiest of thoughts but i do think about it sometimes and I think it definitely means something important. i'd agree that it's an awesome philosophy, i think my thoughts of it fall short of what it is worth.

[MajiKat]

yeah, its not soemthing that is in my day-to-day thoughts, that all i am experiencing or reacting too culminates in some kind of lesson, but then, later, something will happen and i'll react differently, knowing i had been there before. does that make sense? its hard to explain...

on another note, has anyone ever experienced de-ja-vu so strongly that they cannot doubt it? or been convinced they have been here before (as in past-life stuff)? i'm intrigued, because i have had some crazy experiences. I'll share them if anyone else has had them too.

[had]

No, I've never experienced that. I'm sure that surprised someone.

[~Ethereal~]

DO - Most, but not all (there's pretty miuch no universally held beliefs) Pagans follow some sort of nature path. But the types vary greatly.
Kat's beliefs are fairly common in the witchy world. Many witches simply believe in an entwined polarity - God and Goddess, separate, but one. Others beleive that all teh Gods and Goddesses of mythology exist as independent beings, others believe that they exist, but are different faces of the God/dess taking on a form that we can connect with. Others mayrever nature spirits or rever nature as alive and pulsing. Or any variation of these, wiht some others thrown in. But from my experience, those are the most common beliefs held in the witchy world. But things get more complicated when you look outside of the witchy sphere to other forms of paganism. Many of these are similar to Witchcraft but jsut as many are quite different.

Kat : I'm a firm believer in past lives and the fact that they can occasionaly encroach on your present life.

[MajiKat]

okay i am going to attempt to explain my past-life beliefs. Bear with me. By the end of this some of you may think i'm mad (madder) but thats okay - i somtimes wonder myself...

anyway. my belief in past lives is connected to my beliefs about the soul, but i'll get to that. the first experience i had was when i was very young (i cannot remember how old, but old enough to read, so maybe between 4 and 6). i was flicking through this book my dad had, and saw my first ever image of Stonehenge. it literally jumped out of the page at me. i remember staring at it for a long time, and then, as if by magic, the black and white picture came alive. i saw colour, i saw movement (the photo was taken at dawn on the winter solstice and there was this amazing sky and all this mist swirling between the stones), and i heard things. voices. whispers. i have no idea what they said - i cannot remember. the were female voices though, that much i do recall. while it freaked me out, it also seemed to arouse an insatiable curiousity about Stonehenge. i read everyting i could about it ( i still do)- i remember struggling to read the encyclopaedia my parents had :-[but it was almost as if i had to know. it was like a memory or soemthing had been awoken. i know it sounds weird, but the same thing has happened with other images i have seen, all connected to that amazing period of history.

the next thing is more of a feeling that i get. its about travel. i was born in australia and have never left the country, but i have been to Cornwall, i have been to Ireland, in my memories somehow. i have this belief in ancesteral memory - i have a huge celtic heritage on my mothers side, and she has the same feelings. its like, everything i read and see about those places is so incredibly familiar, and i know that i must go there. i must. its not a want, its a need.

this brings me to my idea about the soul. i believe in reincarnation of the soul, but only parts of it. i mean, i am not someone else, i am me, and only me, but i feel, i dunno, like i have been places and experienced things i know i haven't this time around. i went and had a tarot reading once and was told i was an old soul and my journey was nearly complete. i have a friend who is a psychic and she said the same thing. it always comes up in any card readings i do for myself. i dream about being somewhere else sometimes. with the old soul thing - once she said that something fell into place. i have always felt older than i am. i have always felt like i have experienced so much. i'm not saying that i am sagely or wise or anything like that, just that, well, i believe life is about lessons, and i feel like i have almost learnt all i need to. that may sound a bit odd i know. but its like, my soul, or that part of me that had needed to continue growing, has almost finished its journey. nothing shocks me, not a great deal surprises me about life, the longer i live it...i dunno, its hard to explain.

this brings me back to Ireland and Cornwall. my journey began there, i know it, and i have this incredible feeling that my journey through life, my soul's journey, will not be over until i go back there. if i don;t make it this time around, part of me will come back again and again until i complete this journey. i think thats why the idea of death does not frighten me at all. its just another stage of life's journey. another thing to experience and learn from.

i also believe my partner and i have met before. i dont believe in love at first sight, but when i saw him for the first time, he was so incredibly familiar to my eyes i wasn't funny. there has been nothing about him, the true essence of him, that has come as a suprise, and i have never been more comfortable with anyone in my entire life. having those feelings only reaffirmed it all for me. he is, literally, my soul mate, and his soul is also nearing the end of its journey.

okay, i've rambled enough. feel free to think i am a bit crazy

Blessings
MK

[Dark One]

MK and Ethereal: Thanks for the info. Most of the wiccan stuff i've found out about comes mainly from things like The Craft, or Buffy.

mysterikat said:

DO - i can answer for myself personally, because i don't actually know alot of witches. I believe in not so much named deities, but in the quintessential feminine and masculine force - the goddess and the god. their primary connection with the world and wtih each other lies in the earth. the goddess is represented by the moon (among others - this is just one way to look at it) and the god by the sun. they are both the mother and father of life, and lovers. the god is also the son of the mother. the sun is the consort of the moon. its a really beautiful cyclical representation - for half the year (winter) the goddess moon rules over life, and in the warmer months, it is the sun god's time. so during summer the god and the goddess are lovers. at the beginning of winter, the god 'dies' and disappears from the earth, while come the beginning of summer, he is reborn again as the Son of the Mother Goddess. life, death, rebirth. Meh, its really hard to explain - i hope that makes some kind of sense

so i tend not to give them names. i don't know about others though.

MK

You should so read Wintersmith! I was reading through your reply to me and though, "i've heard this before somewhere". The Wintersmith deals with gods of winter and summer, and one dies as the other is reborn

[~Ethereal~]

Kat : Nothing that you said makes you seem mad to me. In fact, that all seems quite natural to me And I've had similar experiences and have similar beliefs about the journey of the soul.

DO: Pratchett does a lot of things right with his witches - from a fiction pov of course. But he clearly does know what he's talking about. And I certainly agree with a lot of the points he makes in A Hat Full Of Sky about it all being trinkets and toys

[MajiKat]

Eth - thanks! When i have told that story to some people, they have looked at me kind of strangely

DO - i will have to check that book out! it is one i have actually been meaning to read for a while.

Eth - have you ever read Silvers Edge or Silvers Bane, by Anne Kelleher? You'd really enjoy them i reckon. I made a post to the library on them, but i'm not sure if its up.

[kinoa]

I dont have a specific religion as such. i was brought up as roman catholic but dimissed it at about 10 yrs old. I definatly belive in evolution AND a god, just not one as the christian faith portrays.

its very hard to explain but my god isent a diety exactly. my god dosent really exist. instead munja (more repectful term than IT, please excuse im still dealing with english) is everything. everything is insignificant to the big picture, yet everything is as important as the next, because it contributes to exsitance "life cannot be comprehended by that which it is"

does that make sence?

[Ashta]

I was wiccan for a good number of years... I haven't stopped believing entirely, but I think I had a few issues in my life which just tore my self esteem assunder, and I'm only just starting to render it back together. Now that I'm begining to get my confidence back, I'm finding that my belief is starting to get stronger. For those people who are always telling me that religion is for the weak, I would have to disagree, it's only when I'm strong and sure-hearted can I return to the loving embrace of the Mother and practise the craft with full conviction.

That's my little rant

bb
Ashta

[~Ethereal~]

Kat : Nope, I've never read anything by Anne Kelleher, but I do glancec her books on the shelf while I'm tidying and think I should give them a shot. Maybe next time I'm looking for something, I will.

Ashta : I would certainly agree that it takes strength to practice the Craft with a whole heart. And it's very easy to waver. I had a bit of trouble when I was about 17

[MajiKat]

Yeah, I too went through a tough period with the Craft. I never stopped believing, but at times I started to question my strength and my will. It was a struggle, but I got through it and i'm glad i didn't turn my back. My beliefs now give me strength when i need it.

MK

[Ashta]

Ethereal: It's not the first time I've wavered, but my partner and I talked it through and unlike my ex, he's okay with it all.... I think that was my major problem not having the support of my partner was kind of a small death for me... but I'm bouncing back! HUZZUH!

-Ashta

[Fuil Dearg]

rigel, that ceremony sounds very beautiful. i found it interesting reading about it. what happens spiritually on the shabbat and in that ceremony, as you have decribed, is beautiful.

---

what happens when your journey is complete?

mysterikat said:

with the old soul thing - once she said that something fell into place.

how do mean? what fell into place and how?

mysterikat said:

i have always felt older than i am. i have always felt like i have experienced so much. i'm not saying that i am sagely or wise or anything like that, just that, well, i believe life is about lessons, and i feel like i have almost learnt all i need to.

from reading some of your posts i think you're wise. and you're poetry gives that impression too.

if you intend to visit Newgrange on the Winter Solstace you might need to book a few years in advance.

mysterikat said:

i also believe my partner and i have met before. i dont believe in love at first sight, but when i saw him for the first time, he was so incredibly familiar to my eyes i wasn't funny. there has been nothing about him, the true essence of him, that has come as a suprise, and i have never been more comfortable with anyone in my entire life.

i havent had that experience myself. but, i'v experienced similar. there have been people i'v met for the first time and i felt very comfortable talking to them and they didn't feel unfamiliar. and there's been people i'v met who seemed entirely unfamiliar, like i never met them before. sometimes, i felt very comfortable with another peson who i didn't actually know and it felt like i knew them for years somehow. i don't know why.
and there's some people who just look familiar somehow, a few of them obernetters. but i'v never met them. i'm not saying it means i'v met them in another life. it's just strange, that's all. there are some people, and i know this sounds very strange and weird, who i get an impression that they're an old soul or a young soul or are spiritually developed in some way or not. i know that doesn't make any sense. and it isnt strongly defined.

i'v had heaps of deja vu and some dreams of the future. i'v had a few dreams and it felt liek they were real but real as in a memory of something and not as in happening now. but i was someone else in those dreams. in one of them i was a girl. it seemed like it was me and i ahd experienced it. but it wasn't this life. i didnt feel that it was another or wasn't. it's just that, during the dream, it felt like it was part of my life i was experiencing and not a merely a dream. liek the dream was a memory or something. though it didnt feel liek it was a memory being recalled. more like i was experiencing it as it happened, not knowing what was to happen next, and that the experience seemed real. real in some way.

and now, feel free to think taht i am very strange.

MK, i'v never had any past life memories, except perhaps those i just mentioned about. and iv only had a few of those. i havent really experienced anything to make me think iv had past lives, save a few strange dreams.

i believe taht you are an old soul.

---

i haven't been to mass in a long time. the last time i was in a church was a few months ago at my sister wedding. the last time i went to a mass before that was years ago. i used to go to mass regularly when i was younger. i liked some things about mass and some others i did not like. my favourite part of the mass was when those people attending the mass would offer eachother a sign of peace. each person would shake hands with another near them and say, "Peace be with you." The other person would reply, "And also with you". Each person would do this with a few people standing or sitting nearby. They didn'y have to and sometimes some people didnt but usually most people did. I most often did so. It's such a nice blessing, "Peace be with you." I think it'd be lovely if it were used as a greeting.



edit: MK, i forgot about something earlier when i posted. there was a women a few years back who told me that she knew me in a different life or somehow but not in this life, and that we were friends or something like friends, that we knew eachother before and liked eachother. she said that before this life i had asked her to come there and to tell me what she told me. the way she said that was like she meant that it was of great importance to my life, that it would shift its course in a positive way somehow. that's what it sounded like her meaning was. i met her in an internet cafe taht one night. i don't remember exactly what was said now. it's muddled. she said some fairly strange things. if your interested PM and i'll tell you about it by reply PM. i'd be interested to know what you think of it.

Fuil.