Fahrenheit 9/11

[Dameon]

No no no no no!!!

John Howard, George W. and Tony Blair were not MISTAKEN!!!!

They KNEW perfectly well that there were no weapons of mass destruction. THey were not MISTAKEN in going into Iraq. They wanted the oil, George wanted to punish the dictator who didn't like Daddy, and they used WMD as an EXCUSE. The CIA, MI6 and ASIO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, and all 3 CHANGED THEIR MINDS on WMD. They said there were none and were ordered by their respective heads of goverment to CHANGE THE INTELLIGENCE.

Not mistakes!

LIES LIES LIES!!!

Just because John Howard SAYS it, doesn't make it true. NEVER BELIEVE A POLITICIAN! You have to look at all the facts!!!

And if John Howard says it is is almost certainly NOT true.

War in Iraq = WRONG WRONG WRONG

KSL

[shadowoutcast]

I don't listen to anyone till i have researched it myself and that is what I did, ASIO, CIA and M16 just had receved the wrong info. The info was leak to them by a once reliable source. Then during the war they found that there reliable source was a corupted swine, and the information was found to be so years old before it got to them.

[Dameon]

No! THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE!!!

THAT IS THE STORY GIVEN BY THE CIA, MI6 and ASIO!

THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE!!!

LIES LIES LIES!!!

(I think we should stop this debate, as there's no way either of us is going to convince the other!)

KSL

[shadowoutcast]

agreed this is no fun at all

[Miska]

its quiet pointless really... tho can any debate really work?! be solved ...anyway...hmmmm yes the movie!

[Glynnavyre]

I don't want to continue this arguement cause we'll just end up going around in circles but think about this...

Kayt said:

AND IT IS WRONG TO LIE TO YOUR SOLDIERS, AND SEND THEM TO THEIR POTENTIAL DEAHTS IN A COUNTRY THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO ENTER.

Why do you think they become soliders... For the fitness?! They join armies and whatever to fight for their country... knowing that death is a possibility...
No war will ever have justification for continueing... But look at world war I & II. Especially in WWI nobody had any idea what they were doing and what the consequences were and many, MANY people lost their lives... Now a days EVERYBODY knows what war is about and that there is death and destruction and life altering events and battles for soliders and civilians but they STILL join up... Thats what they want to do...

The whole world is like chinese whispers... Imagine if somebody came out tomorrow and said they was a huge metor plummiting to earth and we're all going to die... The world would prepare for destruction and drastic action would taken... then sometime next week that same person said 'sorry it was just a minor blip on our telescope these no metor' The imtellegence was wrong and somebody made a mistake and took everything out of preportion... Everything is great in hindsight. and it's very easy to criticise and judge. But decision have to be made in the right there and then...

It's wrong to think that america wasn't going to take SERIOUS action on people after september 11. When you have so much power and whatever you can and they did... And the american people feel like they got a bit of revenge... THATS the problem with politics... Making the majority happy

[Duria]

i'm sorry but i need to have a speechy moment too.

join it for the fitness? all the americans i know in iraq are just over there getting fat. they're young guys from minority groups camping out with other guys and getting themselves a government pension. they aren't murdurers or bad guys they're just bored.

i also refuse to be named a "make chocolate not war" person.
hell, make war if it's done in the nicest possible way that changes dictators without lots of body bags, but then don't try and make it all better just like that, and don't josh around making everyone involved look stupid. i'm not stupid. i know that this war was being planned in 2000 and that WoT was just an excuse.
Fine, if needs doing DO SOMETHING! we all know what happened when they didn't do something (can we all say Rwanda) don't screw around trying to GIVE these people democracy, YOU CAN'T GIVE PEOPLE THE FIGHT! they have to MAKE IT! if they want it then protect them when they vote but first protect them when they have no clean water and when they have no food.

i hope that now everyone's happy enough with the oil situation because now when saudi blows (i mean come on, it's gonna happen) we can still drive our shiny cars along our long black streets.

as far as i can see this war's on it's way to becoming housekeeping. we have bigger problems. and it's name is sudan.

ps. this who i am, what i think and what i say, if you like it let it be if you don't do the same

[Dameon]

Tell it like it is, Duria!!!

KSL

[Ceirwan]

Hey, I actually like heated debates! As long as the arguments are backed up and I think you guys are doing a good job of backing them up. (And as long as no one is nasty to one another).

Whether or not we think that Bush, Howard and Blair should have gone into Iraq or not, they have and we can't change that.

So what now? Should Australian troops stay there? And is ANYONE going to vote for John Howard at the coming election?

[Dameon]

Am I going to vote for John Howard?

*falls into a fit of hysterics*

Ahahahahahahahaha!

Is ANYONE going to vote for John Howard?

*sobers up*

He could well win. CURSE HIS OILY HIDE!!!

KSL
PS. Yes, I am genuinely angry. I HATE the government. Really, really HATE IT!!! And I'm FURIOUS about gay marriage! DAMN THE LABOR PARTY TOO, THE SCUM!!!

[shadowoutcast]

I with you on that KSL goverment the one human creation that should be steamed by the fires of hell (don't mind me) I say the Australian Soilders should return from Iraq we done what we agreed to do and now were only there to wipe the USA's back side.growls

[Duria]

i wouldn't vote for liberal simply because they waste tax payers money on their stupid self plugs.

"medicare: it's really good, we promise"

any useful information? NO! a shameless self plug in an effort to gain votes: OF COURSE!

p.s. if you're a goverment researcher, i know my rights, you ask me any questions or use my message in an effort to gain information about my opinions and you have to pay me.
p.p.s. if you are going to pay me then it's $30 an hour from commercial companies and because you're wasting my money i'll waste yours and charge $40 ;D

[Rainelk]

isn't there any competant alternative to Liberal (ha! i laugh ironically at that name. ha! i says, HA!) and Labor? Where are the people of Australia who have a vision other than kiss America's ass? And the drive to follow through with making Australia a better place? I suppose as far as drive goes Howard's done a good job. He kissed George Bush's ass good.

Labor...*rolls eyes and groans* it's an alternative at least.

the sad thing about all this is that John Howard has a very good chance of getting voted back in. yes the economy is going well but WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY ABOVE AND FOREMOST NOT AN ECONOMY. having a strong economy is all well and good but is this the thing that really matters? who, when they see that the economy is not declining thinks of good ol' jonny in government doing a good job? But when social benefits go up or down there is comment, there is happiness, there is vitriol, there is feeling. I'm not saying that a strong economy is not important. Of course it is, the nation's money is what funds the social benefits, the education, the health, the pensions, the assistances etc.

However what does John Howard choose to do with this money? Put it towards a war that was wrong, running detention centres, giving the middle class and wealthy tax cuts, if they'll be honest, that they don't need. What else does he do? Take away money from our education system, from our universities so that gradually only those that can pay can attend. Ask yourselves, in a country that's always seen itself as relatively egalitarian, is the beginnings of wider gaps between the classes and the pushing of those at the bottom even lower what we want?


~Justine-who-can't-vote

[Clare]

What kind of economy uses its profit to give out enormous bribe-payouts to consumers in order win election votes rather than putting that surplus back into the system where it is needed?

I mean, all these one-time payouts for First Home Buyers, First Child, Back to School, Elderly Healthcare Relief etc are blatant bribing. It makes me sick! There is no long term benifet to these ridiculous schemes. It's a waste of goddamn money. Instant gratification of a fickle and collectively stupid society.

Our prime minister blatantly and unapologetically lies to us and bribes us with sweets. I'd bite his ankles if they weren't so disgustingly old and monkey-like.

[Duria]

and those ugly tracksuits. i won't see taxpayer money going to ugly tracksuits, that's all i have to say on the matter.

[Justine aka Rainelk]

tis interesting to see most people that are posting seem left-leaning/leftist...or perhaps all the right wingers have been scared away by the negative vibe towards right wing politicians.

heated debate would be interesting ;D

~Jus

[Duria]

i honestly don't think our government is THAT bad. i mean sure we cosy up to the big guys but it could be worse. we have food; we have running CLEAN water; we have a fair voting system; women can wear pants/work/be educated; we are allowed to practise any religion we like (even jedi knights); and we're allowed to get grumpy and yell/scream/protest about it.

looks good to me, look at the picture/caption/thing WE HAVE THIS!

i just don't really like war that much ai-ee?

[Duria]

p.s. just thought i'd mention that those tracksuits really do upset me. almost as bad as those ugly jackets the athletes war to opening ceremony *shudders*
somethings should not be worn ever.

[talisha]

well.. the tracky pants dont affect me all that much, but apart from that I agree with Duria, I think our Government is alright, in the sense that we aren't under privelaged and do have clean water and food and equal rights (most of the time) but I really think it's time for a change. Get rid of John Howard people.

We are still under the Union jack, 'controlled' by the Queen, we don't need another person or country that is going to think they can pull us around like puppets on strings. I'm sick of the way that JOhn Howard cant make a decision on his own, there was no need for him to involve us in the war with America, something that wont be easily forgotten, and will give us a reputation. Our Government is somewhat of a joke because of him. I dont want to lose the respect of other countries because of what John Howard decides upoin our behalf. We are a good country and he doesnt represent us justly.
At our school, in the foyer to the main office, there are two puppets that a couple of students made of John Howard being dangled on strings by Bush, something that is out for everyone to see and has been there fore a few years now. He is a joke.

I'm straying from the subject a little, but I'm just going to say that I absoloutely cant stand the things Howard says about public schools and gay marriages and many other things, its like he doesnt have any logic in the strange head of his at all.

*deep breath* sorry im done now

[Duria]

howard doesn't worry me nearly as much as bush and i think howard had to make a hard decision. i also don't really mind with the queen. if someone i loved died under that flag i'd want it kept in use. i also think we should be proud of our colony past because it helped make us the multicultural society we are today.
i also don't like the idea that patriotism is just what's on the sporting field like so many people keep saying.
i love my country, for our stupid tax laws and silly traditions and bush rangers and unimpressive army size and dumb decisions. look how far we've come.

this is my quote of them moment (you've probably read it by now, i'm plugging it for all it's worth):

"i love my country
by which i mean
i am indebted joyfully
to all the people throughout its history
who have fought the government to make right
where so many cunning sons and daughters
our foremothers and forefathers
came singing through slaughter
came through hell and high water
so that we could stand here
and behold breathlessly the sight
how a raging river of tears
cut a grand canyon of light"

[Justine]

it's true that we do live in a good country and i am definitely grateful for all the privileges i've enjoyed simply by existing here. however (always the howevers...) what if the country could be made better? even simply by taking out involvement in wars we shouldn't have been involved in would be an improvement.

Life may be good. But we are human. Can it be better?

and whilst our country is important, my gosh i want to leave it but i love it, once we have acheived stability in this high standard of living shouldn't we have a moral obligation to help out other countries that don't have the same privileges?

why do the rich share the least and those with less make the provision to share?

i like to think of australians as a non-selfish community of citizens. we say that we would help out our mates in need. what about our foreign mates? i'm not talking about the upper-class americans that dubya belongs to that we 'help' in regards to such things as the war in iraq. i mean the destitute in sudan, the sick and dieing children in countries that have NO clean water, NO education, NO one to care about what happens to them because there's so many of them in need that they've become a statistic. AIDS is an epidemic, if a silent one that is wiping out whole generations in Africa.

And yet we turn a blind eye

considering how multicultural Australia is, we seem to be a nation cold and indifferent
(don't get me wrong. i am aware there are many hard working australians that care and do everything they can. but as a whole we rank poorly. so does much of the world) to the sufferings of those not within or from our own country. We spend more money on our pets than on foreign aid. By all means, feed the pets, do not neglect them. Their lives have value too. But there is a point where it become excess.

We spend more money on our pets than on foreign aid. We would buy a $60 jumper for Fluffy rather than feed a starving child for two months

The bribes that Clare mentioned in an earlier post, amount to a huge amount of money. because the fact is that they are bribes would render them excess money to those who receive them- in other words we would survive without them. That money can go towards a start of helping first our own homeless and desitute (who am i kidding of course we'll always put australians first) and then to foreign aid. to countries that desperately need the help.

But who could convince everyone to be generous?

what we cannot see, does not exist. time to wake up people.

It does

[Dameon]

YES! Everybody's right!

We have a government which has been fairly elected by the majority of people in this country. It's unfortunate, but sadly, this is NOT a nice country.

It is full of selfish, ignorant people who talk about mateship while failing to lift a finger to help anyone. The reason John Howard is so succesful despite being terrible for this country, is because he manipulates the selfish and especially the racist opinions of the Australian public.

We talk about a mulitcultural society, but a majority of Australians whole-heartedly support the government's policy on refugees. I can walk down to the shops and pass an enourmous number of ordinary suburban, CANBERRAN (and therefore left-wing) Australians, and not meet a single person in favour of allowing more refugees into the country. Why? NOT because we don't have the resources. NOT because they're "queue jumpers". Simply because they're not Australian, and a majority of the time, THEY'RE NOT WHITE!!! Australians are some of the most racist people in the world.

And they're ignorant. They don't understand the world and they don't know they're being lied to! And even if they do know, they're so selfish, THEY DON'T CARE!!! as long as they get that tax-cut, or baby-money they're happy to be lied to and treated like idiots.

Actually, I whole heartedly support the treatment of the Australian Voting Public like a bunch of idiots because THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE.

I will never ever introduce a GST. LIES!
Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. LIES!
And links with Al Qaeda. LIES!
These people are throwing children overboard. LIES!
We will not reduce University funding. LIES!
"I OWE THE AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC THE OBLIGATION TO BE TRUTHFUL"

Yep! You sure do!!! But something tells me you MIGHT NOT BE FULLFILLING IT, YOU SCUMMY CONSERVATIVE ECONOMIC RATIONALIST PANTSHOLE!!!

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly Mark Latham's number one fan either! For a start, he supports the ban on gay marriage, for another thing he once made a speech in front of an American flag, andlet us never forget that he is a slave to the Labor Party Catholic Right, and therefore advocates a moral agenda set by fundamentalist catholics, which he then attempts to inflict upon NON-Catholics, even atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and so forth.

Personally, I'd prefer Prime Minister Bob Brown, even if he does tend to change his mind a lot!

BUT, it ain't gonna happen. It will come down to a choice between Latham's Labor, and Howard's Coalition, and there SIMPLY IS NO COMPARISON.

OUT WITH THE HOWARD GOVERNMENT I SAY!!! A BUNCH OF LYING, RACIST, CONSERVATIVE, SNOBBISH, MANIPULATIVE SCUM!!!

Half the voters in this country say they DO NOT support John Howard.

And he will promptly be re-elected.

VOTERS ARE MORONS!

KSL

[brydie]

well, just to make you all happy, i'll become the next prime minister. that way you can all tell me when i'm lying and i'll stop. i promise!!

[shadowoutcast]

That what we need some one in politics who can be told there lying by the people. And change for it.

[Justine]

hey! i was planning to become prime minister! ;D

although it'll be difficult getting elected since i'm asian and female

~Prime Minister Rainelk of the Liberated States of Psycholalia