Fahrenheit 9/11

[Dameon]

THOUGHTS OF A NAMELESS WANDERER UPON VIEWING FAHRENHEIT 9/11

Well...

A few thoughts:

Thought 1: This movie is NOT for the squeamish or faint-hearted! There are some very disturbing images from Iraq, and even HEARING the World Trade Centre stuff can be quite disturbing, without even SEEING the footage. I was deeply disturbed

Thought 2: It's disturbing, but it's the kind of disturbing that people SHOULD see. All Americans should see this film! Anyone pro-war should see this film. Anyone who believes the War in Iraq was justifiable should see this film

Thought 3: It's basically a re-hash of what Moore says in his book "Stupid White Men" so I already knew a lot of the things he says. But it's so much easier to see it all drawn out on screen

Thought 4: Jeez!!! The number of connections that git George W. has got to Saudi Arabia and the Bin Laden family is phenomonal. Every member of that government is corrupt as hell!!!

Thought 5: No mention is made of Australia, and it's very America orientated. But as a study of the War on Terror, why it happened and what motivated it, it's very informative

Thought 6: WHY OH WHY is Michael Moore the only one who reports this stuff!?

Thought 7: Of course you can't believe everything Michael Moore says. Sometimes he quotes people out of context. But there was no mistaking a lot of it. Most of what he said is definetly valid.

Thought 8: GEORGE BUSH IS SUCH A ROTTEN PRESIDENT!!!

Thought 9: Sadly, it's only preaching to the converted. I was already anti-war and anti-Bush. But the people who NEED to see it won't.

Thought 10: How can anyone call Moore Anti-America. The man is SO patriotic!!!

Thought 11: Some American military types are NUTS!!! Why do they give these men guns???

Has anyone else seen it? What did you think? I strongly reccomend it, if you think you can stomach the worst bits. It made me cry, but I understand why what was there was there, and it was never gratuitous.

So. Any thoughts?

KSL

[Min]

Yeah, saw it last week, thought it was disturbing. There were some really gruesome bits in it.

I agree, everyone should see it, because it shows a lot of real life stuff that propoganda hides from the public. Yes, some the quotes most definately are taken out of context, but you don't have to believe everything Michael Moore has said. Just like people shouldn't automatically believe what their leaders say. Take everything with a grain of salt

[Lucy]

The only problem I have with Michael Moore is that he had some kind of personal vendetta against Bush (well, you know what I mean) and I think that sometimes gets in the way of some of his messages - like you guys said with the context etc.

Personally I thought Bowling for Columbine was a better film in the, well, I suppose the less powerful way he conveyed his messages if that makes sense. I also thought that Bowling for Columbine is able to reach a much wider audience than 9/11 - as you guys have said about preaching to the converted. If people are pro-war they aren't going to see this film. It's disturbing to the people who are against the war, but I think those who thought it was "worth while" will shrug it off as horridly out of context and having a very blinkered approach to the subject. Moore is very specific in the footage that he shows, and although I think his ideas of some of the USA and war are correct, he doesn't always go about conveying it the right way.

[Marija]

I agree with bowling for columbine being a better movie. I thought F 9/11 was a little too focused on iraq, but oh well. The important thing to remember is that although Michael Moore says some interesting things, HE isn't completely correct either. He is a nice balance though =)

[Ceirwan]

I've heard some people criticise Michael Moore because he didn't include things like the weapons inspectors in Iraq, the United Nations, the horrible things that Saddam Hussein did (and I agree)

But apparently Michael Moore says he deliberately left all that out coz you simply can't put EVERYTHING into a documentary and he wanted to show the stuff that no one else shows. Good point.

Everyone in my cinema applauded at the end of Fahrenheit 911.

I remember at the end of LOTR: The Return of the King some people clapped but even though it was such a brilliant movie, Aussies just don't get inspired to clap and applaud and do all that stuff.

So I was surprised and impressed at the reaction to Michael Moore's movie.

[Glynnavyre]

I don't want to throw a spanner in anyones works but Micheal Moore's films are Proaganda in themselves...
They are edited a certain way to convey the message HE wants to tell and have you believe... The very essesence of the proaganda concept...
He has issues against Geroge Bush and its not hard to sit in an editing room with miles of tape for years and put together a movie that a cinema of people, who ALREADY harbour those views, agree with... I have no doubts that the cinema clapped because there are many sides to complicated sotries like this - and the people on the other sides weren't in that cinema...

I DON'T take sides in issues like this... But I did study Film and TV intensly while at the end of High School and it is consequencly the reason while I what very little movies and I can't deal with any main stream, policallically/vandetta motivated, one eyed documentaries...
There are people out there who could put together a film piece CONVINCING you that there are aliens in space but that isn't always true... If you want the truth, with out other motivations you've got to find it yourself...

[Min]

But I think it's good in the sense that even though it's propaganda in itself, it's the side that we rarely see as westerners. It's making people think about their choices and their blind faith in their leaders.

I've recommended it to my work colleages...especially the accounts lady who has the very frustrating view of 'America Good, Iraq Bad' and can't back it up to save herself.

[Duria]

i prefer the awful truth to bowling but i haven't seen 9/11 because i live in a hole.

on the subject of bowling, i thought it was great in getting to the issue but i don't think it solved anything and i think 9/11 will end the same.

i think that violence in us schools is just getting out of hand. i can't believe the gangs got so bad that bandanas and groups wearing the same coloured clothing were banned.

back to 9/11, this poem is my fav poem ever and if it isn't used in farenheit, it should be. it's by ani difranco, actually read it, it's incredible:



self evident


yes,
us people are just poems
we're 90% metaphor
with a leanness of meaning
approaching hyper-distillation
and once upon a time
we were moonshine
rushing down the throat of a giraffe
yes, rushing down the long hallway
despite what the p.a. announcement says
yes, rushing down the long stairs
with the whiskey of eternity
fermented and distilled
to eighteen minutes
burning down our throats
down the hall
down the stairs
in a building so tall
that it will always be there
yes, it's part of a pair
there on the bow of noah's ark
the most prestigious couple
just kickin back parked
against a perfectly blue sky
on a morning beatific
in its indian summer breeze
on the day that america
fell to its knees
after strutting around for a century
without saying thank you
or please

and the shock was subsonic
and the smoke was deafening
between the setup and the punch line
cuz we were all on time for work that day
we all boarded that plane for to fly
and then while the fires were raging
we all climbed up on the windowsill
and then we all held hands
and jumped into the sky

and every borough looked up when it heard the first blast
and then every dumb action movie was summarily surpassed
and the exodus uptown by foot and motorcar
looked more like war than anything i've seen so far
so far
so far
so fierce and ingenious
a poetic specter so far gone
that every jackass newscaster was struck dumb and stumbling
over 'oh my god' and 'this is unbelievable' and on and on
and i'll tell you what, while we're at it
you can keep the pentagon
keep the propaganda
keep each and every tv
that's been trying to convince me
to participate
in some prep school punk's plan to perpetuate retribution
perpetuate retribution
even as the blue toxic smoke of our lesson in retribution
is still hanging in the air
and there's ash on our shoes
and there's ash in our hair
and there's a fine silt on every mantle
from hell's kitchen to brooklyn
and the streets are full of stories
sudden twists and near misses
and soon every open bar is crammed to the rafters
with tales of narrowly averted disasters
and the whiskey is flowin
like never before
as all over the country
folks just shake their heads
and pour

so here's a toast to all the folks who live in palestine
afghanistan
iraq

el salvador

here's a toast to the folks living on the pine ridge reservation
under the stone cold gaze of mt. rushmore

here's a toast to all those nurses and doctors
who daily provide women with a choice
who stand down a threat the size of oklahoma city
just to listen to a young woman's voice

here's a toast to all the folks on death row right now
awaiting the executioner's guillotine
who are shackled there with dread and can only escape into their heads
to find peace in the form of a dream

cuz take away our playstations
and we are a third world nation
under the thumb of some blue blood royal son
who stole the oval office and that phony election
i mean
it don't take a weatherman
to look around and see the weather
jeb said he'd deliver florida, folks
and boy did he ever

and we hold these truths to be self evident:
#1 george w. bush is not president
#2 america is not a true democracy
#3 the media is not fooling me
cuz i am a poem heeding hyper-distillation
i've got no room for a lie so verbose
i'm looking out over my whole human family
and i'm raising my glass in a toast

here's to our last drink of fossil fuels
let us vow to get off of this sauce
shoo away the swarms of commuter planes
and find that train ticket we lost
cuz once upon a time the line followed the river
and peeked into all the backyards
and the laundry was waving
the graffiti was teasing us
from brick walls and bridges
we were rolling over ridges
through valleys
under stars
i dream of touring like duke ellington
in my own railroad car
i dream of waiting on the tall blonde wooden benches
in a grand station aglow with grace
and then standing out on the platform
and feeling the air on my face

give back the night its distant whistle
give the darkness back its soul
give the big oil companies the finger finally
and relearn how to rock-n-roll
yes, the lessons are all around us and a change is waiting there
so it's time to pick through the rubble, clean the streets
and clear the air
get our government to pull its big thingy out of the sand
of someone else's desert
put it back in its pants
and quit the hypocritical chants of
freedom forever

cuz when one lone phone rang
in two thousand and one
at ten after nine
on nine one one
which is the number we all called
when that lone phone rang right off the wall
right off our desk and down the long hall
down the long stairs
in a building so tall
that the whole world turned
just to watch it fall


and while we're at it
remember the first time around?
the bomb?
the ryder truck?
the parking garage?
the princess that didn't even feel the pea?
remember joking around in our apartment on avenue D?

can you imagine how many paper coffee cups would have to change their design
following a fantastical reversal of the new york skyline?!

it was a joke, of course
it was a joke
at the time
and that was just a few years ago
so let the record show
that the FBI was all over that case
that the plot was obvious and in everybody's face
and scoping that scene
religiously
the CIA
or is it KGB?
committing countless crimes against humanity
with this kind of eventuality
as its excuse
for abuse after expensive abuse
and it didn't have a clue
look, another window to see through
way up here
on the 104th floor
look
another key
another door
10% literal
90% metaphor
3000 some poems disguised as people
on an almost too perfect day
should be more than pawns
in some a$shole's passion play
so now it's your job
and it's my job
to make it that way
to make sure they didn't die in vain
sshhhhhh....
baby listen
hear the train?

[Elondriel]

havn't seen Fareinheight 9/11, but did see bowling.

Glynnavyre wrote that they are not the whole truth. its true. i did an assignment last semester on the interview between moore and heston and in my research found that that interview had been majorly edited and that although heston is in the wrong for some things, there are other parts that he can't help (ilness + stuff). so as much as i like moore, i still think that you can't believe everything that he says.

still want to see it tho.

that poem is soo good. heaps emotional but there are things that i disagree with. is it written by an American by any chance?

oh and as to Roz's line 'Everyone in my cinema applauded at the end of Fahrenheit 911.' i'm sorry but that really sh!ts me off when ppl applaud at the end of a movie.

[Duria]

that's like at that film festival and people applauded for like half an hour. on jjj they're all like "it's not a rock concert people, mike moore isn't gonna put on another one for you if you clap extra long"


and yes ani is american. she's running her 'vote dammit' tour is you're in america right now.

she was in new york when it happened (she lives there when she's not touring/in buffalo) and she toured while writing for a while then when it was finished she took it back to new york and did a huge concert.

you have to hear her read it, it's amazing.


fabulous woman, amazing poem.

which parts bother you? *looks interested*

[Rilla]

That poem was fantastic...

[Elondriel]

Duria said:

here's a toast to all the folks on death row right now
awaiting the executioner's guillotine
who are shackled there with dread and can only escape into their heads
to find peace in the form of a dream

Specifically this part

[Glynnavyre]

All replys - truespoken...

though I'm not for a 'good' type of proganda?!
See, really cluey people would understand that everything everybody says and the way it is portraied has to be examined and understood to be 'shaped' by editing and such... But what about the people who take everything at face value and don't understand the way things might be manipulated and such (which just happens to be a huge percentage of the population)...Is somebody going to tell them that?! No, probaby not...
I'm not saying this sort of contrast movie shouldn't be made or whatever... what am doing is rambling on about nothing and not finding a way to express the point i'm trying to make...

Forgive me - it's late... I might try another time! (there is no sleeping smiley!)

[Elspethseeker]

Wow the ads match the topic! i haven't seen it yet but have heard it isn't that bad. A lot of bush hammering but it is bush.

[talisha]

I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 on Tuesday night.
I've never been a George Bush fan, but this movie just reinforced my dislike for him.
I wont go into it, but how can someone be so lazy and bad at leading his country? He waited 7 minutes, 7 MINUTES before he even got up after he was told that his country was under attack.
I've never really known a lot of the things about the war in deatil... did I miss something? The Saudi's were responsible for destroying the World Trade Center, why the hell did Bush blame it on the Iraqi's. It's just stupid.
Kayt - I was also really really shocked about the amount of connections that Bush had with the Saudi's and Bin Laden family, it was unbelievable.

It was a really sad but powerful movie I thought. I almost cried (and I dont cry) when the mother had to read the last letter she recieved from her son, and when she went to visit the White House, especially after seeing how proud she was to have her family taking part in such an 'honourable' service to their country.
I just cant believe George Bush. I know the movie was specifically targetting Bush to show that he wasnt a particularly good president, and while he may have done some 'good' things, he still took months of holidays, didnt act on things appropriately, eg. sitting in the classroom for 7 minutes, and 'cheating' the vote by even becoming the President, whether he really did cheat or not, I cant say, I'm just still in shock that someone could be so awful, and permit the slaughter of thousands of innocent people, and for what?

[shadowoutcast]

Elondriel said:

its true. i did an assignment last semester on the interview between moore and heston and in my research found that that interview had been majorly edited and that although heston is in the wrong for some things, there are other parts that he can't help (ilness + stuff). so as much as i like moore, i still think that you can't believe everything that he says.

Now I did post on this before (but just as I sent it my login timed out) I've done some research on 'Bowling' to and man some of the info given is completely shocking at first, do some research into it and you find that some of the numbers interviews and scenes were drastically edited. One of the reasons 'bowling' didn't get an Academy Award for the Documentary section.

if you need more go here

[Duria]

george is over his head here though.

"our enemies are innovatice and resourceful; and so are we. our enemies never stop thinking about ways to harm our country and our people; and neither will we."

ladies and gentlemen the leader of the free world!

p.s. when he was in the defense line of work he went AWOL for two months. it speaks for itself.

[Elspethseeker]

Yes down with bush up with Kaerry gotta be better!

[Lix]

maybe we just a need a very smart chicken to lead us?

[Duria]

or a super chicken!!!!!

all praise the super chicken for it is just and fair!

[shadowoutcast]

Now I hear all of you people baging GB. I agree he is not the best but look at the Olympic this year Afganistan and Iraq have both been able to appear in the march, now Iraq has been there a number of time but Afganistan's last appearence was 50 yr ago. Another thing, I keep hearing the the war on Iraq wasn't just, explain to me what is then because were the people of Iraq treated just while Sadam was in power. People I tell you now Do Not Believe Everything you hear or see, but make up our own mind.

[Dameon]

*SCREAMS*

I HAVE MADE UP MY OWN MIND!!!

THE WAR IN IRAQ WAS NOT JUST!!! IT WAS WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! I DON'T CARE IF SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS A DICTATOR, IT IS WRONG TO LIE TO THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED YOU, AND IT IS WRONG TO LIE TO YOUR SOLDIERS, AND SEND THEM TO THEIR POTENTIAL DEAHTS IN A COUNTRY THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO ENTER. IT IS WRONG TO DISOBEY A UN EDICT!!! IT IS WRONG WRONG WRONG, AND BETTER TO LISTEN TO EVERYTHING YOU HEAR THEN TO LISTEN TO GOVERNMENT-SPROUTED PROPOGANGDA!!!

And that, ladies and gentleman, was my two cents!

KSL

[Ceirwan]

Of course Saddam was horrible and we're all glad he's gone.

But the problem is that Saddam being a horrible dictator was NOT the justification for the invasion in Iraq. The justification was weapons of mass destruction, which haven't been found. A war on a false premise.

Yes some good has come out of the troops going into Iraq but it has also sparked horrific outbreaks of terrorism.

Another big problem: Saddam was not the only horrible dictator in the world. Iraq was not the only country suffering horrendous human rights.

What about North Korea? Sudan? Zimbabwe? Saudi Arabia? Should we send troops there too?

What makes me saddest of all is that after two world wars and all the other atrocities of the 20th century, people still believe the best solution is to go in with bombs and guns.

Now I agree that it would take something deadly serious to make Saddam budge an inch.

But I'm deeply saddened that blowing people up is still seen as the best solution.

*gets down from my soap box*

[shadowoutcast]

Now now, don't over work yourself. I don't believe it was the best solution to have armed forces sent in to a country was the best posible action to take. (KSL, I'm soory to sanp your 2 cents) The 'War on Iraq' didn't occur because we lied on what information we had, The Goverment, did what they thought was the best couse of action with the information at hand. One hick-up (big or small you pick) is that later rather than earlier they found out the information had pocket of dount surrounding it. Roz, your so called outbrakes of terrorisum is the subtance we see on the TV, If the media weren't such 'valture' (litely used) then we would see the countries that are free of a dictatorship have now been free of supresion(sp?). Another thing is that I believe the UN should enforce (without 'force') a humaitation act that stops ppl such the like of a dictator steping into power. Just my opinon.

[Miska]

ok well i get heated over this topic...so i didnt really read wat u guys said. therefor sorry if i repeat something.

ok basically my views are - something had to happen in iraq for there country to sort itself out. and the best thing was probably a war (most prob only thing too) BUT what i dont agree on is the USA thinking they had to do it. the UN is ment to call the shots like that - desided if its a threat to everyone or not. it was an internal affair that had nothin to do with the rest of the world - in ANYway! (esp since waepons of mass destruction werent found! but that occured later)...so my beef with bush is HE TOOK MATTERS INTO HIS OWN HANDS AND IGNORED AUTHORITY. he has no rite to do that -no matter who HE thinks he is.