The 2nd Amendment

[grunty]

The second amendment (in my/our country at least) allows us the right to bear/own/have arms. to own guns in easier terms. There are some people who would just love to rip up that along with the rest of the bill o' rights. Then in essence, you would be an outlaw for owning a rifle. I live in the midwest, almost (really about 99%) own a firearm of some type and we use it to hunt, target shoot, have fun. By having fun i something like this. All of the guys in our family get together at a shooting range in Wisconsin and just plink around. I have an Uncle who collects guns, lots of guns. He has over 200 firearms in a storeroom in the basement. My freinds Dad has an M16 in his closet along with lots of pistols. My dad has a Ruger pistol, a .22 and a 30-06 long rifle. I fully support the 2nd and when i turn 18, strive to exercise my given right. This is a highly debateable issue and it is still being pondered today. I and some others speculate that the rights that have been given to us may in the future be taken away. What are your views on this?

[Arctic Firefox]

When your Founding Fathers wrote the Second Amendment, they talked about the need of having an active militia or something like that. At the time, with hostile Native American tribes and so forth, I can see why they thought this necessary (though, of course, they shouldn't have been trespassing on the Native American's land anyway, much like here in Australia). However, this is the 21st century. There are no hostile groups within America which are terrorising civilians on a regular basis, so the idea that people should be armed is outdated.

Before I go further, please don't equate the Second Amendment to the Bill of Rights. Your President supports the Second Amendment, yet his Patriot Acts are the ones which are taking away the basic rights your Founding Fathers thought everyone (well, every free white man, at least) should have. If the Second Amendment were scrapped (and I seriously doubt this would ever happen), this would have no effect on all your other rights.

America's gun culture leads to many preventable deaths across the country. I'm sure you've heard the stories of parents accidentally killing their children because they thought they were intruders. All I can say is that you need to relax a bit. Yes, there are criminals out there who kill people, but to think that they're going to kill you is a bit paranoid. In fact, you're more likely to kill yourself than be killed by someone else.

It is already too easy to acquire guns in the USA - surely all those school shootings have made this clear by now? In Australia, we had one such massacre (Port Arthur in 1996), and the government banned several types of guns and placed heavy restrictions on others. No massacre since *touch wood*.

As for hunting, well - I am completely against shooting animals for sport; I find it an abhorrent activity which simply glorifies murder.

Basically, at the end of the day, certain gun-nuts in the NRA have the ear of Congress, so I can't see much happening on the gun front in the US unless a really progressive President/Congress is elected. In the current climate of fear, I don't see that being the case anytime soon. However, in Australia even our conservative Prime Minister supports gun control and I am glad he does.

[Squirt]

Yeah, I totally agree that there should be VERY strict limitations on gun ownership and use. This totally makes me think about Michael Moores (sp?) 'Bowling For Columbine' where he talks about how Canada have just as many guns as (if not more than) the US, but they have hardly any shootings. From memory I think he said it was partly due to the American people having an unrealistic fear of each other. So, yeah, whilst I agree with any legislation that prevents more people from owning guns, there has to be more done to prevent shootings like Columbine from happenening.

I'm also very anti-hunting, I don't like the idea of killing animals for sport at all.

[grunty]

Its gunna p!ss you off that i'm pro-hunting. Don't try and change me though, it wont work, and i wont try and change you. Quote: "please don't equate the Second Amendment to the Bill of Rights", can you restate that so a 16 year old from iowa can understand? lol (i'm no cat, i'll make fun of myself) I Kind-of don't understand you extreme anit hunting POV, but you probably don't get my pro hunting theorys. Around here getting your first buck is one of the passages into manhood, along with getting liscense. Anyways, we have a right to bear arms here, and our sergent at CAP tells us that along with freedom of speech, press, lawyer, we also need to excercise this one when we get older. we aren't gun crazy over here either.

i'll leave you with this. You've been stranded in the wilderness for 6 days, you have a rifle and a handfull of shells left. there's no food, is it gunna be you, or that deer in the middle of the field?

[Min]

Ok guys, this is going to be a very controversial issue...

I don't care who you are, but you do not have any right, whatsoever, to hunt and kill animals FOR FUN. Are you reading the same Obernewtyn Chronicles we're reading? Doesn't the value they place on beast life ring true for you? They have hearts, brains, feelings, families, just like the rest of us do. How would you feel if someone rocked up to your house, shot your family and said "but it's fun" - because it's pretty much the same thing.
So, I'm not trying to change you - I'm just trying to get you to validate hunting for fun past the "because it's fun" excuse. If you believe it's your "right", then explain why it's your right.

I am a vegetarian, and always have been a vegetarian. My mum brought us up that way, along with also having respect for animals, and taking responsibility for our actions. And I'm very glad she did. Stranded in the wilderness? There are always other alternatives to meat. Always. And they'll be a damn-sight more healthy for you than eating raw meat.

As for guns, I don't own one, and I don't plan on owning one. I don't see any need for me, living in the suburbs, to own a gun. Nor did I see any reason when I was living in country-town Stanthorpe.
Not that taking away guns is going to help anything. If someone wants to hurt you, they'll use a knife, or whatever they can get their hands on. I guess it just makes it less easy for people to hurt each other when guns are out of the picture.

grunty said:

Around here getting your first buck is one of the passages into manhood, along with getting liscense.

That is absolutely disgusting. I would consider someone who went out and shot a deer a coward. Not a hero. Go take the deer head on, without your gun to hide behind, and see who wins.

[Kangaruth]

I can kind of see the point of having a rifle if you're going to use it to shoot your own food. I'm not veggie and, while I respect the views of those who are, if you aren't there's no point being squeamish about where your food comes from. I come from a (fairly, although less so that when I was little) rural part of Scotland and there is quite a family tradition of rifle shooting. I can shoot a rifle, although not especially well, and I never have outside a rifle range.

I have a couple of problems with the American gun laws, though. The first is the idea that "you have the right therefore you must exercise it." That's just stupid. A gun is dangerous and if you don't need one, then what is the point in having one. It's the most stupid argument. As someone said on the Voting thread, with every right comes responsibility, and part of that responsibility is to only exercise your right when it is necessary.

The second is ease with which you can get a gun. In Switzerland every male owns a gun. But this is because every young male does compulsory military service. So they all know how to use it. And they don't. Anybody can get a gun in America, and accidents happen all the time.

The third is about intent. You own a rifle to hunt with, fine. You hunt with it, you keep it somewhere safe, you don't keep it loaded. You own it, or a handgun to protect yourself and your family? From what? You aren't (or at least shouldn't be) allowed to administer justice yourself with lethal force. Owning a gun with this intent isn't right. It's about rights again - they have a right, no matter what they've done, to a fair trial. Surely that's a more fundamental human right than the right to own a gun?

In Britain you can own a rifle to hunt with, or compete in events with, but you must be registered. The register has tightened considerably since the Dunblane massacre. Handguns have been outlawed since shortly after then. The government, and the population, saw Dunblane for the tragedy it was, and have taken as many steps as possible to ensure it doesn't happen again. The US government has taken no such steps after similar tragedies in the States.

(If you don't know, Dunblane is a town near where I grew up, where a guy walked into the primary school gymn one day and killed a whole class full of little kids, then himself. It was horrific.)

Anyway, I don't know how coherent my argument is, but my basic point is, gun ownership shouldn't be a right, it should be a priviledge. Taking it away as a "right" is not an infringement on your human rights. It shouldn't even really be an infringement on your civil rights, because the majority of people don't have a "need" for a gun, and those that do could still get one, albeit with a little more difficulty.

[Lauren Hedgehog]

I believe in a bit of both. I agree with guns being banned in the city areas - if you don't need a gun you shouldn't have one. But farmers should be allowed guns, as well as anyone who has a truely legitimate reason (although I'm having trouble coming up with many legitimate reasons). I'm anti-hunting/killing unless it's for food, in which case it should be fast, as painless as possible and with no wasteage

[grunty]

do you guys hate me? and if it makes you feel any better, its not just for fun, i hunt/fish for food. and yes i am reading the same dammed chronicles you are. that is fiction. they cannot communicate with us (save that stupid bink with tv show), they do not have that deep thought processes, this is not obernewtyn, and they are tasty.

and as for murders, gangs ect, why should we have to pay for their stupidity...

i can sense myself getting defense so i'll leave this topic for a while.

[Min]

grunty said:

God gave us dominion over all of the creatures of the earth, that means that they are much less important than we are.

This is perhaps the most selfish statement I have ever heard. How dare you presume that we can do as we please because "we are the all mighty human"?
I'm not living in a fantasy world where animals talk to us, but it's the ideals that Isobelle is expressing that are important, and what I was referring to, and probably why she wrote so passionately about the subject. Haven't you ever had a dog, or a cat, or any pets? Don't you consider their feelings and needs, as you would a child, when you're responsible for them, and they're putting the trust in you to look after them? It's no different to any other species on the planet. To assume there is a difference is hypocritical. And if we're going to go biblical, God gave us the responsibility of taking care of all his creatures, not dominion to do as we please to them.

I'm not saying "don't go and eat meat" - don't ever get me wrong on that. I'm just saying don't kill for the hell of it, because it's fun.
I don't see how taking the life of another living soul could be fun.

And I don't see why you ask if we hate you...you started this controversial issue, I said from my first post in here it was going to be controversial. All we are doing is expressing opinions and trying to figure out why the world is the way it is, right?

[grunty]

someone delete this topic,

and on a side note, i LOVE just walking in the woods, and i love fishing too. sorry for my stupidity in former postage

blech.... This is perhaps the most selfish statement I have ever heard. How dare you presume that we can do as we please because "we are the all mighty human"?

thats not what i meant. i didn't mean by that statement that we can blow everything else off the face of the earth. i dont think we came from stupid monkeys if you care to know. Obernewtyn anthromophosizes (spelled it wrong i know) un sentient life, they have no soul, no intellect and all instinct. and my cat can be very stupid at times, i have stories the ones that do show some intellect we do not eat? i'm tired...

"God gave us the responsibility of taking care of all his creatures, not dominion to do as we please to them" - that min, was what i was trying to get at.


reading your guys' posts i feel like an prik and don't belong. i'm only sixteen i should stay out dammed theologys way...


EDIT: I am no animal rights activist and i personally don't like them, they freak me out. the problem this topic is that it has turned into "animal rights" and

also on a lighter note, C.A.P. is going paintballing against the Marine Explorers, (not official, just whoever shows up) and we kicked their asses last time, Lud help up to pull it off again.

[Arctic Firefox]

Why should someone delete this topic, Grunty? Feeling outgunned? ;D

The fact is that your arguments are pretty weak. No one here talked about animal rights. We were talking about respecting animals. Those are two different topics.

Your God also said to you: "THOU SHALT NOT KILL", remember? It's one of your Ten Commandments. Note that it doesn't say "not kill people", it says "not kill" at all! Therefore, it would logically follow that you shouldn't be killing anything. How do you reconcile religion with hunting?

When I said you shouldn't equate the Second Amendment with the Bill of Rights is that they have no links to each other. Why would losing the right to have a gun automatically lose you the right to free speech? (By the way, you don't have free speech in America anyway since Bush's Patriot Acts, so there's nothing left to lose as it is. You don't necessarily always have a right to a lawyer anymore, either.)

Owning a gun may be "manhood" in your neck of the woods, but don't expect anyone here to understand that. I'm 23, an age which would be considered a "man" in all civilisations, but I've never even touched a gun, let alone fired one. Guns have nothing to do with masculinity in my view.

And as Min has pointed out, you seem unable to articulate why it is your "right" to own a gun. Just because some gun-nut tells you it is, doesn't make it so. Bush told everyone Iraq had WMD, and that didn't exactly materialise, did it now?

[Kangaruth]

grunty said:

do you guys hate me?

[...]and as for murders, gangs ect, why should we have to pay for their stupidity...

We don't hate you, Grunty but if you bring up a topic as contraversial as this one you'll have to be prepared for the consequences! Especially as you don't share the majority view. (But that's why you brought it up, right?)

I don't see how having to register a gun is paying for murderers' stupidity. It's a way of trying to prevent it, while still allowing "normal" citizens to go about their lives (and doing so more safely). In fact, I think many murders, gang shootings and school massacres are the result of governmental stupidity in failing to bring in strict laws on firearms. Gun crime is on the increase worldwide (even in Switzerland!) and the only way to combat this is with tighter gun controls. The key word there is control. Surely even you can see that this is one area where that control is needed. Why is it okay for your government to bring about controls on free speach (an extremely important civil right!) but not on guns?

(I'm going to ignore the animal rights issue here - that's a whole other topic. An as for the whole evolution thing... )

[Cookie Lover]

Sorry, but if you mention Evloution, you've got me against you! And with the guns......one of the few good things Johnny Howard's done is put in strict gun laws. If America had the same laws, it would be so much safer, they have how many gun deaths? Over a thousad a year. Our leader is constantly following America like a lap dog, copying their ideas, expecially with wars in the Middle East, maybe, for a change, Bush could take the Howard idea and put in some gun laws!

[Lauren Hedgehog]

grunty said:

do you guys hate me?

Don't worry Grunty. There is a difference between disliking someone's views on a topic and disliking someone as a person. My sister and I clash (sometimes rather loudly ) on various issues, but I don't hate her. I very, very much dislike some of her views, but I could never hate her and our arguments are often quite informative. Argueing views with people at least makes me understand why they take a particular stance, even if I would never personally agree with it. And I think the world needs more understanding .

[grunty]

If it makes you also feel any better, in hunting, I HAVE NOT KILLED A DAMMED THING!! contrary to the paintball feild, my aim isn't as good. and on top of that, my dad is too lazy to take me out so i end up going only 1 every 16 years (he only has taken me out once).

now i dont know what your veiws on fishing are but i love to fish, why? because i can do it way more often and worms cost alot less than ammunition, and after it rains, they are free.

and that manhood thing, turns out my friend was BSing me about what he shot.

my personall armament right now is pretty much all non-lethal stuff, well most of it. 2 paintball guns, 2 airsoft pistols, 1 slingshot, and 1 pellet rifle.

and speaking of paintball, there was a raccoon on our roof and my dad wanted to shoot it with his .22. before he could load i gassed up my paintball gun and filled the hopper, and after about seven shots, (only 2 connected) he was off that roof really quick. moral, raccoons hate paintball.

[Roland]

So given that you haven't had your first "buck" does that mean you're not a man?

[Arctic Firefox]

I feel very sad for that raccoon. How was it to know it was causing you grief? I hope that paint comes out easily, because if the raccoon decided to try and lick it off, it would probably poison itself and become ill, if not die. Have you actually held a raccoon in your arms? I have, and they are delightfully cheeky and sweet creatures. They don't deserve to be shot at, regardless of whose roof they're on.

Coincidentally, here's a quote about raccoons:

"A very interesting book could be written about the Raccoon and, with its industrious energy and resourcefulness, it deserves to be elevated to the status of the National Emblem in place of the parasitical, carrion-feeding Bald Eagle."
—Ivan T. Sanderson in Living Mammals of the World


If I were to support a political party in the Netherlands again (and I think I very well may), it would be the "Partij voor de Dieren" [Party for the Animals]. They focus not necessarily on animal rights, but animal welfare, aiming to introduce policies which protect and preserve the waning numbers of wild animals in the Netherlands, as well as ensuring the greatest comfort for those who will be eaten. (Of course, they also advocate vegetarianism.) National elections will be held next year, and I intend to vote for them from here if I can. It would be great if they could get just one seat in parliament.

[Squirt]

and speaking of paintball, there was a raccoon on our roof and my dad wanted to shoot it with his .22. before he could load i gassed up my paintball gun and filled the hopper, and after about seven shots, (only 2 connected) he was off that roof really quick. moral, raccoons hate paintball.

2 connected! I haven't been paintballing and I've never seen or been a raccoon (obviously), but from what I've heard, paintballs really hurt, and I didn't think that raccoons were that big! That's horrible, poor raccoon! Was it hurt? Was your aim top scare off the raccoon before he was shot by your dad? Or did you enjoy shooting at it?

[grunty]

all they do is bruise and it goes away in the next week, and considering they have fur it would hurt less for them.

and about poisioning it, the paint it non toxic, they have paintball eating contests, i've eaten one and it was nasty, and about it comeing out, the paint is water based so the next time he goes swimming or gets caught in the rain itll come off.

i just wasn't in the mood to dig a hole.. and yea, to scare it off.

in northern wisconsin they have eased up on the hunting restrictions, why, to HELP the deer. there is a disease going around and there are more deer than people up there anyways.

[Min]

*sigh*

There are so many more humans in the world than there needs to be. When a massive epidemic comes along, do we just shoot the sick humans? No.

My neighbours upstairs were making such a racket yesteday. Maybe I should have gone up and shot them.

*bigger sigh*

[grunty]

silly min, there are more bugs.

no but shooting 1-100 sick deer to prevent the other 1,000,000+ deer from getting sick and dying (the disease will eventually kill its victim) seems pretty logical to me

[Dameon]

Shooting the sick deer doesn't sound very sporting to me.

Do people shoot them for sport, or just for the good of the animals? Sometimes we cull kangaroos to prevent them starving to death. But it's done by the Government, officially. We don't just hand out licences allowing anyone who wants to to off a kangaroo.

[grunty]

we're (they are in northern WI shooting the sick deer to prevent them from infecting the rest of them

[Min]

I think what Kayt meant though was did the Government specifically say "go to town on the deer" or did the community take it upon themselves?

[grunty]

they passed a bill that allowed the bag limit to be larger.

but as for turkeys, i honestly dont care about them, those watering-caners are annoying, 2 am outside my blasted window GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE!!!!